Pup and I get along. I respect Puppy, and I am pretty sure he respects me.
I am asking that any of you who feels the need to defend me...don't. I do not feel attacked, and there is no reason to turn this into something mean spirited.
Plus we are Jacking ( ) Grasshoppers thread.
Experience is a brutal teacher, but you learn. My God, do you learn. - C.S. Lewis
Life is usually all about how you handle Plan B. - Jack3Beans
Listen without defending; Speak without offending - FaithinAK
"Wow. Actually, of all the people I actually thought I would run into around here, I have to admit OT, it was you smile Actually, of all the people I was sorta afraid to run into, it was you smile smile smile You always had a way of smacking me around. "
Not sure how to take that... You KNOW I prefer directness. Shall I go away? Or, do you, as I had always thought, like to have my two (several) cents?
Anyway, I will assume that I'm appreciated, lol... Here are some thoughts:
(1) Read DB again, especially the earlier less desperate chapters. You are, after all, less desperate than most here.
Almost all the folks in these parts find the boards in the wee hours of the morning some sleepless night POST-bomb. Then, they start at the beginning of DB, trying stuff for Ms that are strained, when their Ms are in tatters. I always want to shout something like: Do not stop, do not glance at asking for what you want, proceed directly to LTR. Lol.
BUT YOU, my little exoskeletoned friend ARE NOT THERE. Your M is strained. The earlier DB techniques might well be useful to you now in ways that were inappropriate last time.
2) I think emails might help you communicate with W. They don't let her make her little silencing comments to you (which you allow to silence you, which is why she uses them, but they are little toxic darts in your M).
How about:
"W,
I've been thinking about what you shared with me about your sister. It is so very sad. It makes me want to be a better husband and father to protect our marriage and our family. It makes me want to be a better partner to you in all ways.
I wanted to begin by thinking about three ways I think we can do better by and for each other: Work, Fun, Intimacy.
Work: I mentioned this is a text message, but I want you to know that I'm serious about your idea of pursuing your idea of making photography our only business, my only job, with us in it together as partners. I see now that you are sooo right -- the personal costs of living life with two jobs are just too high for us, the kids, and me.
Fun: I also want to be a better partner to you in terms of supporting you in having a full rich life. You find something very rewarding/enriching in enjoying a very social night out. That this adds to your happiness is important to me. I want us to work together to find a way for this to happen that works for both of us.
Here are somethings that have made it hard and painful for me when you go out. (1) The private R with the child-man borders seems almost too intimate, (2) You have been dishonest with me about where you have been, how you have gotten there, etc. Lying is not OK. And a social life that involves secrets and evasions is not OK. (3) I am excluded from this part of your life.
I'm sure that you have problems with how I have been reacting to your social life as well.
But rather than be at odds over your social life, lets be partners. How do we make it a priority for you to have a great social life that works for us? Your happiness enhances our M. It makes sex better. What's not to like? Let's make it work.
I think the keys are: honest, respect for each other, respect for our marriage.
Here are some ideas for boundaries that put each other and our M first that might help us both here:
(i) No lies, no omissions, no evasions about our social lives. It is the old open book/transparency thing. If something about our social lives is off-limits or hidden to the other person, that's something we need to work together to change. There shouldn't be anything that we should be surprised to learn about the other person with respect to outside social interaction.
Example: For instance, it would not be OK if you were to suddenly find out that I'd regularly been having lunch with some hot FB chick for the past three years, but had simply never mentioned it to you.
(ii) No friends that our friends to our M. This doesn't mean that we each need to be best friends to the other's friends. It simply means that we don't have friends who are not to some degree our friends and friends to our M.
Example: If junior is a regular part of your social circle, then junior needs to be our friend and a friend to our M. We need to have some social activity with him that includes both of us.
(iii) Being accountable with respect to our whereabouts to each other. We are parents, lovers, partners, friends. It isn't OK to disappear and stop communicating.
Example: I get tied up with work and show up 4 hours after I said I would without a word. Not OK. Same thing with when time gets away from you when you go out. Communication and keeping our commitments to each other is important here.
(iv) Always give each other a chance to grow and be a better partner so that we can grow into better people for ourselves and each other.
Example: Give me a chance to be a friend to your friends. In the past, I was a lousy friend to your friends. Give me a chance to do better, to be a better friend to them, to be a better partner to you.
(v) Respect each other as adults free to make our own choices and responsible for their own choices.
Example: I don't get to tell you what to do -- those are your choices. I don't get to pretend that my choices are your fault. They are MY choices, after all. So, no blaming the other person for one's own choices.
Intimacy: I love you so much. I lust you so much. You drive me crazy. I owe it to use to make more quality time for our romantic relationship, personal intimacy, physical intimacy. So, please let me blindfold you and take you to places you've not been before literally and figuratively. There's something hot about having sex in a nice hotel room in the middle of the day, don't you think?
I love you so much. I'm so lucky to have you in my life. You are my partner, my lover. Let's make magic in our lives together.
Love, Your green exoskeletoned H
Yeah, OK, probably a little much to tackle in ONE email. But, just saying, email might be a good route for you. And, try to innoculate yourself against W's toxic silencing tactics. Try to call her on it: "Hey, that little dart is meant to silence me. That doesn't work for me. I want you to hear what I'm sharing with you. I care about you, about us, that's why I'm sharing."
3) As your sex life is going well, this is one case in which I'm not convinced that W is having an EA/PA. But, *thin ice* no matter what. And, the lying is flatly NOT OK.
4) Just wondering, did W ever confess to a PA last time?
I guess we cross-posted. Just read your update. FWIW -- I think you did great in a needed conversation and got across on your own a lot of what I was trying to convey in the email suggestion above.
Two parts REALLY bothered me:
"At no point was this an argument. Voices were not raised. She did address things somewhat, but the response was the same most of the time; "you are over reacting as you always do. These are just friends, nothing more. Yes, he texts me, etc but it's always in the context of the group."
What crap from W. "W, it is not OK to dismiss my concern with your "over-reacting" line. This is silencing and putting the problem on me. It shuts down the conversation. Not this time. I do not feel I am over-reacting and even if I am, we need to work together through this problem. You have outright lied to me multiple times. You have snuck around. You have engaged in risky behavior. You are hiding things from me. This is not good for our M. It is not respectful of me or our M. It is NOT OK."
"My worst, non-db move came at that point. I said "well then show me the texts if there is nothing to hide" Stop hiding your phone, etc. She said all that was because I am always snooping. Not really true but... I said, well, if you are hiding something, who's wrong?"
Again, what crap from W: "W, snooping on each other should be impossible. Our lives should be open books to each other. You can look in my phone, in my email. You had full access to my FB page, which you were still uncomfortable with, so out of respect for our M, I changed by behavior there. If we are open to each other, snooping isn't really a possibility. If you have secrets in your private life about your interactions with your friends, that is a problem for our M. It is your secretiveness that creates a world in which you could even feel snooped upon."
"W,
Imagine I disappeared after work, then snuck in the house at 3am after an unexplained late night that I spent someplace I specifically said I wouldn't be, having spent $200 on an expensive dinner, woke up without my wedding ring and told you: "I forget why I took it off, I was just having a good time. Geez, quit hassling me and being such a controlling b*tch."
Would that work for you? I think not. And it most certainly doesn't work for me. It is time for you to get A LOT MORE HONEST with yourself and me about how YOUR choices are having negative consequences for your life, my life, our marriage, and our children."
Have my fingers crossed that your phone chat shook things up a bit for her. I hope it doesn't take the life-wreck equivalent of a DUI to get her to look at herself again.
Actually, it was Grasshopper to whom I was trying to present the other side of the argument. I just used collective language, but it is his sitch that I thinks bears some of the obvious warning signs of re-ignited waywardness.
"Wow. Actually, of all the people I actually thought I would run into around here, I have to admit OT, it was you smile Actually, of all the people I was sorta afraid to run into, it was you smile smile smile You always had a way of smacking me around. "
Not sure how to take that... You KNOW I prefer directness. Shall I go away? Or, do you, as I had always thought, like to have my two (several) cents?
Anyway, I will assume that I'm appreciated, lol... Here are some thoughts:
(1) Read DB again, especially the earlier less desperate chapters. You are, after all, less desperate than most here.
Almost all the folks in these parts find the boards in the wee hours of the morning some sleepless night POST-bomb. Then, they start at the beginning of DB, trying stuff for Ms that are strained, when their Ms are in tatters. I always want to shout something like: Do not stop, do not glance at asking for what you want, proceed directly to LTR. Lol.
BUT YOU, my little exoskeletoned friend ARE NOT THERE. Your M is strained. The earlier DB techniques might well be useful to you now in ways that were inappropriate last time.
2) I think emails might help you communicate with W. They don't let her make her little silencing comments to you (which you allow to silence you, which is why she uses them, but they are little toxic darts in your M).
How about:
"W,
I've been thinking about what you shared with me about your sister. It is so very sad. It makes me want to be a better husband and father to protect our marriage and our family. It makes me want to be a better partner to you in all ways.
I wanted to begin by thinking about three ways I think we can do better by and for each other: Work, Fun, Intimacy.
Work: I mentioned this is a text message, but I want you to know that I'm serious about your idea of pursuing your idea of making photography our only business, my only job, with us in it together as partners. I see now that you are sooo right -- the personal costs of living life with two jobs are just too high for us, the kids, and me.
Fun: I also want to be a better partner to you in terms of supporting you in having a full rich life. You find something very rewarding/enriching in enjoying a very social night out. That this adds to your happiness is important to me. I want us to work together to find a way for this to happen that works for both of us.
Here are somethings that have made it hard and painful for me when you go out. (1) The private R with the child-man borders seems almost too intimate, (2) You have been dishonest with me about where you have been, how you have gotten there, etc. Lying is not OK. And a social life that involves secrets and evasions is not OK. (3) I am excluded from this part of your life.
I'm sure that you have problems with how I have been reacting to your social life as well.
But rather than be at odds over your social life, lets be partners. How do we make it a priority for you to have a great social life that works for us? Your happiness enhances our M. It makes sex better. What's not to like? Let's make it work.
I think the keys are: honest, respect for each other, respect for our marriage.
Here are some ideas for boundaries that put each other and our M first that might help us both here:
(i) No lies, no omissions, no evasions about our social lives. It is the old open book/transparency thing. If something about our social lives is off-limits or hidden to the other person, that's something we need to work together to change. There shouldn't be anything that we should be surprised to learn about the other person with respect to outside social interaction.
Example: For instance, it would not be OK if you were to suddenly find out that I'd regularly been having lunch with some hot FB chick for the past three years, but had simply never mentioned it to you.
(ii) No friends that our friends to our M. This doesn't mean that we each need to be best friends to the other's friends. It simply means that we don't have friends who are not to some degree our friends and friends to our M.
Example: If junior is a regular part of your social circle, then junior needs to be our friend and a friend to our M. We need to have some social activity with him that includes both of us.
(iii) Being accountable with respect to our whereabouts to each other. We are parents, lovers, partners, friends. It isn't OK to disappear and stop communicating.
Example: I get tied up with work and show up 4 hours after I said I would without a word. Not OK. Same thing with when time gets away from you when you go out. Communication and keeping our commitments to each other is important here.
(iv) Always give each other a chance to grow and be a better partner so that we can grow into better people for ourselves and each other.
Example: Give me a chance to be a friend to your friends. In the past, I was a lousy friend to your friends. Give me a chance to do better, to be a better friend to them, to be a better partner to you.
(v) Respect each other as adults free to make our own choices and responsible for their own choices.
Example: I don't get to tell you what to do -- those are your choices. I don't get to pretend that my choices are your fault. They are MY choices, after all. So, no blaming the other person for one's own choices.
Intimacy: I love you so much. I lust you so much. You drive me crazy. I owe it to use to make more quality time for our romantic relationship, personal intimacy, physical intimacy. So, please let me blindfold you and take you to places you've not been before literally and figuratively. There's something hot about having sex in a nice hotel room in the middle of the day, don't you think?
I love you so much. I'm so lucky to have you in my life. You are my partner, my lover. Let's make magic in our lives together.
Love, Your green exoskeletoned H
Yeah, OK, probably a little much to tackle in ONE email. But, just saying, email might be a good route for you. And, try to innoculate yourself against W's toxic silencing tactics. Try to call her on it: "Hey, that little dart is meant to silence me. That doesn't work for me. I want you to hear what I'm sharing with you. I care about you, about us, that's why I'm sharing."
3) As your sex life is going well, this is one case in which I'm not convinced that W is having an EA/PA. But, *thin ice* no matter what. And, the lying is flatly NOT OK.
4) Just wondering, did W ever confess to a PA last time?
Thanks for stopping by my thread. I'm so sorry that you're back here, but you're getting good advice.
FWIW, I love the idea of using email instead of calls and texts. Also, I'm not convinced that your W is in MLC. What else is she doing that leads you to that conclusion? For instance, My H did all the stereotypical stuff: affair, Porsche, spending like crazy without concern for consequences, trying everything to look younger, etc. Are there other behaviors
And you DO give yourself good advice. Have you talked with your MC about any of these developments? If that helped you before, it might help again.
You're doing great, IMO. Keep on doing the DB stuff that works for you, especially GAL.
And if you're going to check in on me, I'll check in on you, too. It's nice to hear from a new voice, so to speak.
) Grasshoppers thread.
