No fighting. Really we didn't talk much at all. I went to bed, she came up a bit later and that was it. No drama.
I have a lot of jumbled feelings today. W was not wearing her rings when she got home last night. I called her on it this morning. She gave me that "Geezus, you're making a big deal again..." sigh. There was no convo, just my pointing the fact out. Probably not the right thing but...
So today I am sure SOMETHING is going one. Likely an EA at this point, but whatever it is, she feels compelled to lie about it. Not good.
While I will occasionally vent about certain things, I am not here to be told what to do about the A. I know my options and am fully capable of exercising them. Like Jack said, no committee necessary.
What I am looking for is support for MY part in this, which I suppose I am re-learning is the only thing I can control.
I realize today that going forward, EA/PA, working things out or the big "d" or whatever, my actions won't change... or should I say the actions I SHOULD be taking won't change. I need to do things for myself that allows me to get back to the place I was at during the height of my DBing 3-4 years ago. I need to detach, GAL, validate and stop living based on my expectations.
I hope for support for all that since I am positive that I will waiver from that path greatly in the next days, weeks and maybe months as this all plays out. I don't know where all this will go yet. I can almost hear the bomber flying over, ready to drop the bomb and while I have a certain amount of dread about that, I really think I need to use my experience to start preparing now. Which is to say I need to not focus on that and just prepare myself for being a better person going forward, whatever happens.
That all sounds nice, and I believe it but as you all know by now, I am fairly emotional and prone to fits of "wrong thoughts" so let's hope that doesn't happen today.
The last little bit of honesty is that while I do believe all of the above, there is a very big part of me that still wants to call her and just get it all out, tell her she's lying, tell her to stop with the OM, rant, rave and just "go off". I SO want to do all that but I am also remembering the core principals that really attracted me to DBing of self reflection, self direction and self improvement all with the idea that by changing your personal dynamics, you can change the dynamics of the marriage... much more effectively than any amount of fighting, yelling, ultimatum making, etc, can do.
There, got it all out. Thanks again for all you've done so far ya'll.
GH
Last edited by grasshopper; 04/08/1001:09 PM. Reason: Add update
1) Snoop (more) and see if I can find evidence of affair. 2) Confront W with said evidence. 3) Demand she stop seeing him "or else" 4) Follow through on the "or else" if she refuses.
or if there is no evidence...
Demand she stop seeing him on principal that it's just not right for a married woman to be hanging with another man.
Choice #2
1) Get back to DB HARD. 2) Focus on myself. 3) Drop expectations. 4) BE who I want to be in our M no matter who she is. 5) Focus more on our boys. 6) GAL.
Yes, I did say a few posts ago that Choice #1 was not for me but it sure would FEEL good to do that, at least in the short term. Then again, as Jack said, once I go there, there's no turning back, whether there is an A or not so much.
Of course on this board, I would hope #2 is the one that would get the votes but damnit #1 seems like what I should do. I suppose that's just being in denial again. I suppose Jack was right when he called me out about OM being THE issue. Choice #1 is all about ridding a symptom and #2 is all about curing a disease. But that symptom, that's the one I can't stand.
I think this is a false choice.
Path #1 is about removing an obstacle (if he indeed is one) -- not a "symptom." It's only one step along the path of DBing, which is generally Path 2. I don't understand why everyone always thinks this is "either-or." To me, DBing where there is OM/OW involved, is about doing BOTH -- determining the truth of the situation, enforcing boundaries, while improving yourself and "becoming the better option."
I do think, Grasshopper, that considering your wife's past infidelity, she is being incredibly callous towards understanding your need to feel safe again in the marriage. She's taking off her wedding rings, taking phone calls from another man (after her husband has expressed concern about this), and staying out 'til all hours, drinking. Whether this is classic MLC or classic affair recidivism, it is a huge problem nonetheless.
I say when your gut tells you something, especially after all you've been thru and learned the past few years, your gut is generally correct.
Wow. Just reading through the stages of LBS. WOW WOW WOW. There is some really great stuff there! Thanks OP for the link. I am going to pull and comment on a bit of it that I especially think applies to me:
Quote:
The growing HAS to take place and the changes HAVE to be made, otherwise, you will recycle what you didn't learn another time-and that trial might be much worse than what you are currently going through.
Wow. This pretty much sums up my sitch in a nutshell. I think I absolutely did recycle SOME of my prior behavior and while I will never accept blame for my W's actions, I will accept blame for my reverting to the old ways that made her feel less special, less loved and more controlled than she should.
Quote:
We MUST become direct opposites of what we were before--as I had to do during my husband's MLC, and the changes on our end MUST become permanent.
Yup. I am here to tell you, as I'm sure many, many, many threads here have proved, this is the case. I am still not sure MLC is the case with my wife, but this can apply to general DBing.
I agree with you both, especially the part about me giving good advice to myself
Update:
Well, something happened that kinda spurred a phone R talk. I was looking at our finances and noticed a big charge to a bar that my wife sometimes goes to with the "friends". She claimed she wasn't going there last night. I called her because I wanted to make sure it was a legit charge. She said it sorta was but she was pissed because it was supposed to be split between 4 people. She said it was a bad sitch (cuz we don't have much cash as it is) and kept going on about how pissed she was that it happened that way. I guess I took that ball and ran with it, suggesting that maybe these new friends, who she has claimed have some money of their own, maybe are not all they say they are. Maybe they are taking advantage of her. She didn't totally disagree. I then was rolling (2x4 please) and said that I wondered what good was coming out of this group? She asked what I meant. I said that there have been several "bad" things that have happened (she lost her wallet.. it was found, she got a ride home from someone she claims not to know, she fell and really messed up her toe) not to mention the damage to our marriage. I asked what was so special about being around them that was worth those things? What was so great about THEM that it took priority over our family? She asked what I meant by that. I reminded her that 2-3 times now that she's gone out with them it was when we had plans as a family. She claimed not to see it that way but clearly it got her thinking. I still had not mentioned OM... and then did I did.
I said that while she claims there is nothing going on, she is acting exactly as she did when she was in the affair. She's keeping her phone on her 24/7 or if it's not in her purse/pocket, it's upside down plugged in. She turns it away whenever anyone calls or texts. She is lying about where she goes, and in the beginning, who she's with, and worst of all, she doesn't seem to care how it affects our family. I said that all sounds like someone seeing someone again. She immediately said that was not true. She said it's not true now, nor will it ever be with this guy. Once again she said he was just part of the group.
I then asked her, if that was the case, why the "group" made her feel like not wearing her wedding rings? She claims she usually does and doesn't remember why/when she took them off last night.
I think at that point I switched gears and said something to the effect of I know how much I have messed up in terms of going back to my old ways and I was working to fix that. Not great DBing (well, much of this isn't I suppose) but I felt it was necessary to let her know that I was not just blaming her for our problems.
I told her that I WANTED her to have friends, but that I wished her friends valued our marriage. She said that since her marriage and me were not topics of conversation for them, it wasn't an issue at all. I said that simply based on her not wearing her rings, and another man giving her a ride, calling/texting her several times, I was fairly sure at least one person in the group was not supportive of our marriage. She asked what I meant. I told her that any man who doesn't understand the damage that calling/texting/hanging with a married woman without at least even meeting her husband is either an idiot or not at all interested in the success of her marriage. I left the obvious unsaid.
She also made a point to challenge me on my assertion that what she was doing was damaging to the FAMILY. She said it was just me that had the problem. I told her that if she really believe that all the emotions and questions S9 has about this (and he has noticed things are going on and asked us about it) are because I put him up to it, you're sadly mistaken. I told her to ask him. He is not stupid, and even at 9 knows that it's strange for HIS mommy to go out and not come home until odd hours of the night, etc. I know it's something that probably a lot of people do but he knows that her doing it, and the way it's being done seems strange. It really bothered him when she bailed on us on Easter. It's somewhat our fault because we discussed it in front of the kids a couple times. Not doing that anymore if at all possible.
At no point was this an argument. Voices were not raised. She did address things somewhat, but the response was the same most of the time; "you are over reacting as you always do. These are just friends, nothing more. Yes, he texts me, etc but it's always in the context of the group."
My worst, non-db move came at that point. I said "well then show me the texts if there is nothing to hide" Stop hiding your phone, etc. She said all that was because I am always snooping. Not really true but... I said, well, if you are hiding something, who's wrong?
In the end I just told her that everything I felt was about wanting us both to be happy, and obviously our marriage to succeed. I hoped she wanted that too, and she said she did so...
Anyway, it was a LOT to type and read but was only about a 5-10 min convo. I think it may actually have done some good, especially since I was able to stay calm and though I didn't type it as much, I did manage to stay validating and expressed my firm desire for her to be a social person again but that she do it with people who were going to be supportive of her as a woman, person, and yes, as wife.
We finished by talking some about bills but the last thing I said was that ultimately I understand that these things are not under my control and I don't want to try to control them anymore.
2x4's are welcome but I am not sure they are necessary. That's not for me to decide I suppose
JUST IN: W just texted and asked me to come home from work early... could be good or bad.
Path #1 is about removing an obstacle (if he indeed is one) -- not a "symptom." It's only one step along the path of DBing, which is generally Path 2. I don't understand why everyone always thinks this is "either-or." To me, DBing where there is OM/OW involved, is about doing BOTH -- determining the truth of the situation, enforcing boundaries, while improving yourself and "becoming the better option."
I think this is the core of a debate that was raging while I was here last time and really isn't 100% clear in terms of the books, etc. I choose to believe that it's not essential to force an end the the A to DB effectively. Many others disagree and say that no real work can be done while the A continues. I disagree there too. That thinking is focusing on external things and not your own internal things. I suppose in the end it's up to each individual to decide where their boundaries and tolerance is and act on it. I know where mine is, or at least where it was.
Path #1 is about removing an obstacle (if he indeed is one) -- not a "symptom." It's only one step along the path of DBing, which is generally Path 2. I don't understand why everyone always thinks this is "either-or." To me, DBing where there is OM/OW involved, is about doing BOTH -- determining the truth of the situation, enforcing boundaries, while improving yourself and "becoming the better option."
I think this is the core of a debate that was raging while I was here last time and really isn't 100% clear in terms of the books, etc. I choose to believe that it's not essential to force an end the the A to DB effectively. Many others disagree and say that no real work can be done while the A continues. I disagree there too. That thinking is focusing on external things and not your own internal things. I suppose in the end it's up to each individual to decide where their boundaries and tolerance is and act on it. I know where mine is, or at least where it was.
It is clear among those books whose authors specialize in infidelity (Harley, Tuppy, Glass, Spring, etal). But it's really your call. If she's hiding her cellphone now, I'd say that's a huge red flag.
Like everyone else. Yelling, fighting, begging, pleading, exposing it to everyone, labeling her a harlot...etc. ad nasuem. You lay down a boundary that goes something like this: "I demand you stop seeing him." and ...what? She stops? She tells you she stops? Lets just cut all the lying crap out right now...she lies to you.
However, I suggest that instead, you work on yourself get yourself to a place where you are armored and can react clearly and without emotions running your choices, once you are there. Then confront.
The proof of an affair will happen, and you do not even need to look hard if one exists.
Puppy and I ARE on the same page for most of the advice about the affair...we differ on the immediate timeline at first.
I also fully agree with Pup about the absolute callousness your wife displays toward you, especially with her past affair.
GH,
I suggest that you continue as if there is an affair, get to a place where you are "GOOD" mentally and where you are strong DBing again...and not this...newb before you throw down a boundary or let your emotions make decisions your may not logically want or be able to enforce.
Pup, has my respect for being one of the few of throwing down a boundary and being able to stick with it...most cannot, most lack the back bone to live with the boundaries they impose.
Experience is a brutal teacher, but you learn. My God, do you learn. - C.S. Lewis
Life is usually all about how you handle Plan B. - Jack3Beans
Listen without defending; Speak without offending - FaithinAK
However, I suggest that instead, you work on yourself get yourself to a place where you are armored and can react clearly and without emotions running your choices, once you are there. Then confront.
At what cost? Sure, you can hope that you are stronger then (more on this below), but the affair only deepens as the emotional attachment grows stronger. For every week and month that an affair continues, the greater the drain on the family's finances, on the betrayed spouse's emotional well-being, and that doesn't even address the greater exposure to STDs and worse.
Reasonable people can disagree about confrontation and exposure, but if you're going to confront, do so EARLY, I say. More often than not, the delayed timeline DOESN'T lead to the betrayed spouse getting strengthened and armored. Usually, it leads to emotional defeat, emasculation, confusion, questioning, weight loss, poor job performance, depression, behavioral problems among the children, and a host of other symptoms. That's been my experience in studying affairs.
Quote:
IS there an affair going on?
So you snoop, you discover it and then what?
How do you react?
Like everyone else. Yelling, fighting, begging, pleading, exposing it to everyone, labeling her a harlot...etc. ad nasuem. You lay down a boundary that goes something like this: "I demand you stop seeing him." and ...what? She stops? She tells you she stops? Lets just cut all the lying crap out right now...she lies to you.
This reminds me of the old joke:
"Doctor, doctor, it hurts when I do this (some physical gesture)."
Dr.: "Then don't do that."
"I demand you stop seeing him" doesn't work -- it's an ULTIMATUM. One should assert a BOUNDARY, rather than an ultimatum:
"Wife, you can do what you will do, but know this: I will not live again in an open marriage."
