Are regrets when you end a separation normal?

[Onthemountaintop]

Thanks Tickled.

As far as I can tell, a lot of her self-esteem issues/depression have been around before we got married. Me and my problems just made it worse.

I mean, think about this. She knew about what she feels is a major transgression against marriage (porn), but she didn't tell me ever. Had I not decided that I wanted to really break boundaries of trust with her in March & get help toward stopping this addiction, she could've gone on knowing forever. You need low self-esteem to not mention an issue that would lead toward considering harming ones self or divorce. But certainly, the problem itself made it worse.

Like in the restaurant. June seems to makes sense to me in saying my glance when she's feeling crushed about porn was hurtful and ignorant. It wasn't on purpose, she was our server. It was my first attempt at a private romantic dinner since our 1st year of marriage. I just made it worse.

I think you're right, at times I feel nervous and might get edgy over that. Through journalling and IC, I think a lot of that is because I feel alone in having to make decisions. If she listens, she just doesn't care. For example, we are supposed to be buying a house this week. She won't join me to even look at the styles. When going through neighbourhoods, she only asked about bussing. I get that she trusts me, but I am Canadian and I have been raised to think major decisions are a chance to unify a couple, or at least a shared responsibility. The current house we're in she didn't even want to see when we bought it.

I realize the porn and other issues may explain a lot. But it also just made each problem worse, too. My biggest issue from Gottman's work was 'condescending' her when I felt flooded. I clearly have work to do, still!

Imagining...I imagined moving would be hard. You know, for the first year, she swore up and down that she didn't feel homesick at all. Only last year did she admit the truth. With her depressions & self-esteem issues/sensitivities, it is hard to imagine and act accordingly, because she doesn't know what she wants. Also, she has a real problem asking for what she wants. Retrouvaille really helped here at first, because it gave me the facts I needed to begin empathizing with her. Unfortunately, she doesn't want to do the daily work and may now have a job on the weekends during our follow-up sessions.

As far as language, I was told she knew English when we married(nope), and I expected to live with our religion coming first to unify us. She didn't. She married because she felt right doing it, wanted to marry a westerner, and because she felt drawn to me without knowing me. Once she got to Canada, she didn't want b/control so & she got pregnant.

Despite this, I insisted she go to English classes (for which she has always been thankful). She dropped out in her 4th month in Canada, so she never got really far. For a couple years, despite me hoping to raise a bilingual family, I insisted on English at home. After that, she refused to speak anything but. As I write this, I'm starting to realize that the porn prob maybe why she was so focused on English (so she could be strong enough to leave or to be better than those I saw on film?).

So here I am, noticing "she is, she does, she didn't"

I should probably erase that. I guess I'm really defending myself for whatever reason. Gotta stop that - sorry.

She won't talk to any of her family about our problems or hers because she wants to protect them. Bad choice, but I can't change that. She's only given a some details to her sister in NY, but that sister's getting shipped back to her country by her stupid & irreligious husband to save money. (AGHH)

So...long story short (?) You made some great points for me and others to reconsider - thanks!

[june72]

Listen OTMT
Your growing, she's growing.
I think both of you are working towards a better life together.

[Onthemountaintop]

I sure hope so! Depression of yesterday shifted to anger somewhat though, so I need to be careful.

[june72]

She is from Syria, right?
Are there any Syrian groups in the area?I know that we have tons of groups affiliated with the university- I swear it seems like every country has their own club in this town.

Women and men differ. Women are always happiest when they have friends. Does she have a lot of friends of is she kind of isolated?

I had mentioned earlier the meetup groups. Would she join any mom's groups? Any volunteer groups? Are there any social groups affiliated with the mosque you attend?

Part of the problem with my unhappiness in the marriage was my isolation. I was much happier once I started to socialize more.


Everyday- do something nice. A smile, an unexpected kiss, a kind word- women eat that stuff up like crazy. If only guys knew how much we love those simple gestures- it makes us melt.

I read somewhere that men get into a relationship and they are content, they are usually low maintenance - but women always need the emotional bonding to continue with small actions and words. Very different from men.

I bet you are already doing that though.

[TickledPink]

Dear OTMT.

What you mentioned in this last post is so familiar to me... although in my case we don't have children (a huge difference I know!).


First.
The porn addiction issue is something that needs to be addressed whether you are with someone or not. In fact, it had to be addressed before you went into any sort of relationships, but let's not look back. I think this should not be mixed with your marriage issues, in a way it's a separate thing altogether. Restaurant waitress/W not feeling attractive/happy are just some ripples of this issue. It's not about 'how do I make her understand?'. It's got nothing to do with her. It's 'how do I want to be' if that makes sense.

When you say 'happy', what is it? What do you value?
How do you picture yourself growing older, how will you be like when you are 60?
Are you surrounded by happy family members, are you with a young sexy chick?
Do you really want to quit porn addiction, or do you just want everything the way you like it?
You need to assess what you value the most in your life.


>She knew about what she feels is a major transgression against marriage (porn), but she didn't tell me ever

In some cultures, porn/ sex is not something you talk about at all. In my culture, a 'decent woman' is supposed to avoid the subject altogether, even with her boyfriend/ husband. When I was a teenager I was instilled with a thought that getting any pleasures out of sex is dirty, especially if you're a woman. Talking about it is unthinkable. When you grow up in one culture not knowing another, you assume it's pretty much the same in the rest of the world… not to mention that M means you are ready to commit (sorted out issues). Did she perhaps have the impression that you will address the porn issue once you are M? Did you ask her if she's ok to live with your addiction?
In my culture it makes sense that she didn't tell you… a man is getting a wife, of course he will address this issue, how can a woman tell a man what to do? He is a man. (= strong and responsible) Her culture is a male-dominant one isn't it?


Dropping out of English class in 4 months… it sounds like she didn't enjoy it or was too busy?
Learning a language is not just about the grammar. It's about learning the whole culture (history, music, sports, politics, TV, anything). Without knowing the culture behind it, it's difficult to understand, let alone joke with someone. I studied for a few years in the UK then came back here as an adult but I still struggle, as I don't know any cricket players, names of politicians or what TV dramas my friends watched as teenagers. Often I don't get it at all and it's no easy task to blend in.
When I came back here I told myself only the good things about UK. I made such a huge life decision to leave my family and country behind, I couldn't afford to be unhappy… I had to justify the sad feeling of being so far from family! I was busy adjusting and exploring my surroundings for about 2 years, and when I got used to things and when I went home for a visit, it suddenly hit me that I miss home terribly, that it's an enormous pressure to be in a different surroundings (no place to relax).

As for not telling her family about the problems… I do the same.
What can they do, they are continents away. They will be worried sick and talking over the phone is not the same as seeing them face to face. It's not like her parents can sit both of you down and help you, they are so far.


>For example, we are supposed to be buying a house this week. She won't join me to even look at the styles.

Does she want to buy a house as well?
When my husband suggested the same, I refused as we already had M issues and buying a house will chain me to this country. I felt that if we split, it's going to be another issue to solve and I won't be able to move back to my home country.


>I'm starting to realize that the porn prob maybe why she was so focused on English (so she could be strong enough to leave or to be better than those I saw on film?)

Is it for your children, to communicate better with their teachers and help with their homework?


Please OTMT, please understand that even standing at a starting line is a huge struggle for us from another culture. Even if we chose to come here, even if we love it, it doesn't mean we'll adjust just fine.
I was a very sociable person before I left my country and although I like where I am, I have become very quiet, an introvert. It takes a long time to build a close friendship with someone… it's not like you can make it your home so easily. Just because there are so many migrants and they all seem to be doing alright, not everyone is… especially if you are in an intercultural marriage, because there is no where you can relax. Together with M issues, it's an extremely lonely life and a tough one.

[Onthemountaintop]

She is from Syria, right?

She doesn't like making friendships. She never has. Her mother was a massive social butterfly, and I think she decided early off to not be one. She also doesn't like volunteering, etc. I'm hoping that work will help, if she gets a job soon. There's the risk that the job will hit her self-esteem, too, but at least it gets her out of the house. I see the isolation issue as a problem, but her solution was to go places and stay in the van and look at people (not kidding) so she could get out. She didn't want rec programs, nothing.

I don't know what to do about one thing related to the job. She wants a job, and an education at the same time. I'd rather the latter for the communication & "intellegence" EN of mine that I can't get from her.

I feel selfish to direct her though, but I think if she did both of them it would stress me out. Instead of seeing my W, I will hear about her and have to finish work only to have to take care of the kids, house, and more. So I've decided to let her decide without me getting involved. Does that make sense and seem fair?

The simple gestures have been hard, but I'll keep it on my list. I've been consistent for including touch more often. That's been helping. I know her ENs aren't all met by me, but she always says everything is perfect, except when we fight, then everything is bad! But, I'll keep working, God willing.

Thanks~

[Onthemountaintop]

The porn addiction issue is something that needs to be addressed whether you are with someone or not.

Way back, I expected that it was so rare I used it(no internet, afraid to get caught in a store) that beyond wanting it and thinking, I expected that M would end my desire forever. Wrong ):

I've got my first reading to do, "Facing the Shadows". It mentioned as you did that I need to look at this issue as something about me with professional help, not as a marriage issue. That's great from my POV, but my W wants to be 'supervising', I think. I'm risking my M by doing it, but considering her knowledge of my transgressions has only made D more likely lately, I've decided to stick to that. I'll tell her some of what is going on, but as I opened that book, I realized I really need privacy. There are issues I just don't want to tell her. Not now, at least.

Restaurant waitress/W not feeling attractive/happy are just some ripples of this issue.

OMG - that is exactly what I felt. It was a symptom of my problem. I am accepting that it was rude, but I tried to tell her too that she needs to judge my intention, I didn't look on purpose - she was our server taking our order! For my 1st romantic dinner, it wasn't great, but I'll get better

Happy to me means that my EN are being met enough, and that I meet hers enough, too. When I picture myself old with my W, I want to see a woman I feel is old & wrinkly, but attractive to me overall.

I know most people who's H has this problem expects all women to look a certain way. I'm different in one way...I still see most women as attractive to me. My W isn't one of them, but she never, ever has been. I never really saw her before marrying... Excluding the internet, I had been usually pretty careful with my glances until our M really hit the rocks last year. I don't want a young girl with me when I'm old. I want someone who accepts my lack of physical attraction to be a problem, but not one that must result in D.

Quitting...

I hate sinning, and I know it to be a sin. I have all the excuses needed to make it hard for me to want to quit forever. So do I want to? I know I must, but I wish I didn't have to. (Screwed up, eh? That is what made me willing to see a doc!)

I really think her low self-esteem led her to say 'better this than other problems'. She also was certain I would stop. She told me that she expected I'd D her if she confronted me. That is how little she knew about me...I was waiting for her to help me want to stop - I would've been embarrassed, but I wanted her to catch me & help me stop (I think!)

So here I am. I'm making these statements to her:
1. I need to have this issue be my own.
2. I need her to accept that I will likely relapse at least a couple times in our M
3. I need her to try to be more attractive for herself, so I don't feel like she's a charity case. If you feel ugly, you will be ugly.
4. I need to keep ML with her so I am less tempted and can't break the addiction soon enough. (She is demanding a full stop in 6mo)
5. I need her to keep getting IC so my problem doesn't lead to her risking her life.
6. I need her support, not judgement by removing the threats while keeping reasonable expectations. This means giving me trust, even though I don't deserve it. I'm trying to stop for religious reasons first, myself & my dignity second, and for her 3rd. If I feel her policing me, I'm sure I'll blame her when I fail and I won't be sober for the long haul.
7. I need to have more time to myself & with the doc to work on this. This means I will be a worse husband and father in some ways or at some times.

Thoughts, anyone?


As you said on the dot, language is so much more than the words. Today, she got her test results and they are what I expected. She has begun to accept some responsibility and a willingness to improve. Good sign!

I think until the test, she really refused to believe that she misunderstood things. As she took the test, she started to notice herself ignoring the tester, skipping instructions, and preanswering questions before reading/listening. Again, good signs for her. I just hope she will seriously work on it.

Among all of my issues and pain I've caused her, I still have a few issues in our M that I'm having problems with that could lead to a D in 6 months. I'm hoping to get rid of these expectations, but I haven't yet.

1. Miscommunications (cultural & linguistic) & problems accepting influence (she's said the latter herself...that if I tell her she hates to do it and often won't)
2. Acceptance of me as I am
3. She expects I will be 100% physically attracted and I'm like 70% (better than last year!). I'm OK with 60%, but she isn't. I need her to accept my attractions as they are - I can't choose to be more attracted. I'm hopin the porn problem will make her less sensitive.
4. Honesty. I need to know what she is actually thinking.

Considering my problems, I know beggar's shouldn't be choosers. But if I'm just begging for the rest of my life, I won't be able to stay married.

Like you said, culture is a big part of communication and thus, a marriage.

I think I expect her to talk to family because she doesn't want to make friendships. This means that all of her issues & communication needs always fall on me, and I don't do well meeting her needs at all. This leads to the isolation feeling June mentioned. But what can I do? I am not her girlfriend, I'm her husband.

I asked her many times about the house, including this morning. I've told her I'm OK staying, but I want to go because of the memories. In truth, the memories are more of her issue than mine. She said yesterday that she felt despair when she saw the house on her walk home.

I follow what you said, TP. She wasn't social anywhere, and she really did expect all of her ENs for communication & recreation would be met by me. People have invited her over and more to build a friendship, but she refuses. (self-esteem & cultural fear?)

Thanks for your detailed response. I've had to think hard enough to write responses today that I know the ideas help.

[TickledPink]

I think work will help her (and you) a lot. Unlike going to an English class, she will be 'forced' to go there and it will give her social interaction. She might start taking care of her appearance more. Getting paid will give her a boost in her self-esteem. While she is at work, her focus will be away from family issues.

No one can control how your W may or may not become though. She might learn to speak a good level of English, she might become adjusted, she might regain her self-esteem, or she might not. It's for her to choose (and even if we choose to better ourselves, sometimes it doesn't happen so easily), no one should judge what is right or what she should do to what level. All we can do is to have some hope and meanwhile work on ourselves.


Perhaps you can try to ditch ALL that you expect from her?
-She may never learn to speak more English. I mean, well done to her, there are so many who simply refuse to learn and adjust even if they chose to migrate!
-she may 'look the same' always... what if something happens and we can't keep looking the way we are? Do we want our spouse to be with us no matter what happens to us physically?
-she may never regain her self-esteem

Keep chipping away at what you need to do to work on yourself... porn addiction, lowering expectation towards others, trying to be in their shoes (respect). I have to work on myself with these as well (sans porn ), it's a life long 'homework', I don't want to grow a bitter old woman!

Some of your issues are typical of intercultural marriage but really, even in the same culture marriage couples come from different cities, religion, up bringing so it's not all about countries... it's about how much you want to know about your spouse. Do you know a lot about Yemen (I thought you said she's from there)? How people think and do things there?
The good side of int. marriage is that it widens your world in a way you have never thought.

[Onthemountaintop]

Thanks for the perspective and ideas TP~

[june72]

Sorry, haven't had the chance to read this- side effect of working again. I will hopefully have the chance tomorrow.
Hope things are going well with you and your wife.

She loves you.


Best,
Heidi