I'm back and looking for insight

[LauraOh]

Hello all,

I'm not new--was here in 2004 under a different name that I think I've figured out--oh well.

Just a quick recap--got the ILYBNILY speach Feb 28, 2004. Went to some counseling, husband walked out mid-session and said he'd never do counseling again. Found these boards thank God! and started my changes!! (love those changes!)

It took the entire requisite "1 month for every year married--9 in all" to where I felt we were "back on track". But I did lurk and was nervous for the full rest of the year. Then things got pretty good! Wow--looking back over the last 5 years--we've taken some nice trips, son is doing awesome in school, we are very active "band parents", etc.

Well, last year started getting crazy with a remodeling project he started. He is a perfectionist/horrible procrastinator (they go hand in hand). I have lived in India, we have a roof, food, etc--It used to bother me that he never finished any project, but I am able to just go outside, count my blessings, etc. I can pretty easily detach.

But the remodel was including 1/2 the house literally, the kitchen had me most freaked out, and then he added the clincher--he wanted to do it all himself. (He literally has NEVER finished a project--part of why we had so many problems to begin with).

I protested--he got angry--I wrote letters (ala Men are From Mars) I learned 6 years ago not to nag and started doing more for him (his LL is Acts of Service) I was excercising like a fiend, dropped more weight (which is ALWAYS Ok.lol) and started to mentally just lose it. So I knew I had to detach and make myself happy.

My son is entering high school, I am (relatively) young at 47, I fell into teaching on a fluke but don't want to go back to it (I have been doing other jobs here and there through the years--worked at my son's school, have done medical transcription for my husband, etc)

He had told me a year or two ago that I could go back to school if I wanted to so I started focusing on that. I tried to keep up with all my husband was asking me to do, but he was like a little maniac running around barking orders. And he was becoming not only verbally abusive to me, but to our son--I lost it.

I made plans to leave--I knew he'd never go to counseling, I had done DBing before and what I learned back then wasn't working, well, except I GAL real quick and then I tasted...freedom?? I have made a ton of changes over the last 6 years. I'm not perfect, and lately I see MORE I can do...but I really would not have it too bad if we divorced

My husband is Very impatient, perfectionist, moody, never satisfied, not a Christian (very important to me now). Sexually, I am very high drive and he is super low. Which is weird because his second LL is physical touch. So I massage his legs and feet when he's off work and get turned on and he doesn't want to have sex. Ugh.

When "the second bomb" went off, ironically, it was me. I was done. He wanted to "talk to someone" and I thought--heck, why not. But I had no faith we'd get a decent counselor.

But we did get a halfway decent guy--a minister no less--and he said I need "Boundaries". That there is no way I should let him do this remodeling himself, he has not shown himself to be reliable.

But...I've been all over the place looking for "Boundaries 101".lol. I did find a site that gave me some great scripts for when he is losing it (daily right now) and what to do when he sulks (the flip side of anger). I stopped going to counseling after he gave me his basic "get boundaries and get your hands all over your H". He thinks I can change my H's low drive which...wow...I didn't think that could change and was willing to live with it.

So we went for 2 months, the first month was just me not really wanting to work on this anymore and then... we had a few sessions alone and the counselor spoke very differently to me. I think he sensed he could engage me if he got me privately.

I only needed one more session and I was ready to work on this again. My H seemed upset that I was "done", but the counselor got me back on track and that's all the counseling we needed really. And the guy was really expensive.lol.

This has gotten so long I know no guys are reading this far.lol. So ladies, if you can, direct me to some "boundary-type" sitchs please?

Oh, and KML I read on another thread is now divorced. I remember her from before, and I *think* her husband was a perfectionist like mine--I would love to be directed to her thread if anyone can link me.

DBing DOES work--hope I didn't discourage anyone. I am in a GREAT place even though there are some tough issues going on now--I think if I get the boundary stuff in place, I'll be back on track.

Laura

[flowmom]

LauraOh, thanks for sharing your story. I'm not great at setting boundaries, but I'm learning that it starts with an internal process. We have to be clear inside. I really like how Byron Katie puts boundaries, for example "I love you and no". Connected assertiveness is grounded in love, but clearly expresses "yes" or "no".

[Butterfly1]

Laura
I appreciate you sharing on my thread. I need some serious advice as the game has changed.

What did you do to DB? Were you ever separated? How did you turn it around exactly?

[LauraOh]

Thanks so much Flomom--does this person have a book? I will have to do a search on that name.

I "used" to feel so clear inside about what I would accept in a person and what I wouldn't. Heck, I remember breaking up with a guy that said F*** you only once to me--told him I wouldn't ever see him again.

Another guy had a wall *almost* completely painted--he'd left like the last 10% undone. That was SUCH a turnoff!! He was history soon afterwards too.

My H never did these things until we were married (the verbal stuff and not finishing things). I nagged him to finish the barn he built (it took 2 years). My house has had the cement floors in the kitchen exposed for 6 years now. I joke with friends it's a new look (and heck--that trend HAS come around!!)

Here is a fine example. 5 years ago we bought a single-wide trailer across the street on around 2 acres. We got it for a good deal (at the time--has decreased in value since). The reason we got it was to turn it around and have a little rental which he said I could manage. I was excited about that--I am a mostly SAHM and he is always saying he is so stressed from work.

He gutted the place, replaced the floor, walls, roof, tore down a little (cute) shed, new plumbing, wiring, paint--now. It is adorable and it was pretty dumpy before. New fencing around it. I have had SO many people over the years ask when it would be done, they have so and so that would rent.

He would never finish it. When I would think--hey! it's nearly done!--he would say Oh, no, XYZ needs to be done now (he hooked up the washer and dryer to go out to the pasture instead of the septic tank.

It's been a huge source of frustration and it came out in counseling.

So now he says "Rent it" and he doesn't want to know about it. So GOOD. I have 3 people that would LOVE to live there. And I am making sure they are good renters because, honestly, it may be ME living there HAPPILY at some point if this nonsense doesn't get fixed!lol.

Having my son and coming from a background that included a messy divorce (my parents when I was 15) has made me "stick it out". I have sworn to myself and my son that I would stay until he was 18. I really thought my H would leave--give me one of those cold sneers and say "see ya" and I already had a pretty good idea of where I was going and what I would do. I had saved a nice little bit of money for it too.

But he didn't--at first he was like "Anything you want" for a few weeks. Then it turned to "it would break his heart" and now--since I've recommitted to this--he's been angry and sulky. But for me, for now, heck--may as well learn this "boundary stuff" and how exactly to apply it. Otherwise I may be in the same boat again with H or ? the next.

So it's coming from inside, I get that--how do you get them to respect your boundaries. The ONLY ones I can do work on are the ones I can control (I have scripts when he is angry to use, then I leave for a while and self sooth. And I give myself permission to tell him I'll get back to things he brings up in a day or two).

But he tells me to rent the trailer, and the toilette isn't flushing for whatever reason. I will NEVER get him to fix it--do I hire someone? and spend money and risk his rath? That sort of thing.

BTW--the counselor told me to list all the projects needing to be done. There are 13. He said to get H to tell me the top 3 or 4 and then get estimates on getting them done. If H won't put them in order, I'm to do it. In other words, he IS recommending I be more "active" and in a business-like way say "do this or...but the "or" really is that when my son is 18 and it's not done, I will leave.

But anyway, I have a new 180 to try out and that is to thank him for working so hard (I have resented his 14 hour days like nobody's business. grr...)lol.

And I'm to "get my hands on him" and not worry about the rejection. This one is not too hard either--he IS going to reject me and I know it right up front.lol. So I have been having a bit of fun with this one actually, since I'm so detached and it doesn't matter really anyway. I wore a low-cut robe and when I initiated a hug this a.m. I told him "I caught you looking". He WASN'T looking and then he looked totally confused.lol I'm putting the "thought" in his head that he was and that's the whole point.

Don't initiate hugs if you're new at this. I think that is Pursuing. I'm on a bit of a different path.

Flomom--what have you been doing? Give me some tips!!

Laura

[LauraOh]

H4L I did read a bit of your sitch and goodness--it did bring me back to our "worst times".

I tell you, the thing that helped me the most was losing my resentment and loving my H for the hurting person he was. And admitting ALL my mistakes to myself.

I feel a book I read back then, and have referred to MANY times over the years, helped me lose my resentment faster than anything else--it's Dr. Laura's Care and Feeding of Husbands.

It helped me see my role pretty darn clearly. I was a HORRIBLE wife to my H. Yeah, he clearly has issues. But I made them worse by nagging, demanding, belittling, spending as little time in his presence as possible, I NEVER spoke his love language and in fact if he asked me to do something I was DEAD against it usually. I would tell him "I'm so busy with S, you have all day off--YOU do it". Bad bad bad.

Once I started speaking his LL, things got SO much better there.

Now, I had NO idea what he was going through--just heard a few others mention what it was like for them to be "in the fog". But later I found out how scared he was. His anger was very much fear related. He would go out with a friend I detest (or so I thought) but really he would go down to a local lake by himself and just sit for hours wondering what he should do.

He was desparate for me to change, but didn't think I could. Had no reason to think I could. Then when I did start changing, he was angry about that too. (why couldn't you have done this before?).

I was fortunate, in a way, that my parents divorced very badly--he blamed my selfish behavior on that, and the fact I didn't know what a good relationship looked like. Really, I was just a selfish brat but him giving me that excuse--yeah, I took it.lol.

You need to figure out your H's LL and speak it NOW. And DON'T let him out of the house if you can--keep him around to see your changes. Be positive. I used to think I could dump my every bad mood on my H--yikes!! That is WRONG. We need to be positive!! Build him up! He still wants to hear he is a good dad! Any little thing that he does right--say something! (I need to do more of this myself!)

Do what it takes every day to make yourself happy--oh! Music!! I forgot about that--certain Christian songs about hope were SO mood altering. My husband would say "why are you so happy all the time now! (thinking I was happy we were divorcing.lol.)

I *wasn't* happy--but I knew I was on some really important life journey. And I had "joy". God doesn't promise you "happiness" but he does promise he will be with you and there will be joy on the journey. His presence was palpable to me. I tell you, the grass was GREENER and the sky was BLUER. I had people/angels come out of NOWHERE to encourage me. It was a horrible and yet? magical time for me. That part made me happy.

I'll get to your sitch and see what's up, but you have lots of "life" left in your sitch in my opinion.

Laura

[flowmom]

Byron Katie has quite a few books and if you google her her site has video clips of her doing The Work with people. She's pretty amazing.

I don't really have many tips for you as I'm pretty early in my sitch...I just sneak into piecing to learn and offer support.

One tip, though, is don't make procrastination a M issue. I have a lot of issues with procrastination and I've done a lot to try to address them...but I still have the problem. Procrastination is not as simple as people think. Everyone procrastinates sometimes, but for people who chronically procrastinate, it's not as simple as a Nike commercial ("just do it").

My H made procrastination into a M issue and he actually told someone it was a "dealbreaker" in the M. Really?? We have shared so much over the years. My procrastination did affect him negatively, but we all have faults.

H turning himself into my taskmaster created a lot of dysfunction in our M. For someone who is dealing with serious procrastination issues, the spouse is not a healthy choice as an accountability partner and I suggest you avoid that role if you want to share trust and closeness with your H.

Yes, it's annoying to have unfinished projects. I guess you have to decide how important those are, and negotiate things like "well if this isn't done by Jan 2011, would you be OK with hiring it out?" -- not in a tough love way, but in a mutual-solution-finding mode.

It's great to read about what you have overcome in your M. It sounds like you've been on quite a journey .

[LauraOh]

Hey Flomom, thanks again for writing!

So YOU are the procrastinator?? Do tell me more about that!

I have always heard that procrastination is perfectionism really. I can be a bit of a perfectionist/procrastinator myself in certain areas. I *can* make my H worse by pointing out little things he's missed (bad, bad!!).lol.

But I have no qualms about hiring out work to GOOD people (btw, I LOOK for the perfectionists when hiring out work.lol.)

I sense you identify with my H, and I would love to hear more of your POV. But this is a HUGE issue in our marriage and it's really not fair. We have a 14-year-old son that never wants to invite anyone over. Our house has holes in the walls, black mold in the bathrooms, stained, nasty carpets.

My son tore a toenail off one time on the baseboard my H never finished (it's been undone for 6 years).

Like I said, I have lived in India--this is a 2000 square foot home on 5 acres. It's a palace compared to that. But he makes awesome money! I've been a completely different person now for 6 years!! And my counselor feels it is a reason for divorce if he can't respect his family enough to do something about it (And this was a Christian Pastor who told me this!)

I think lack of respect is in there too--boundaries and respect--seems to be a coralation? Have you seen that to be true?

I am so excited that there are videos to see!! Going to check them out--thanks!!

Laura

[flowmom]

LauraOh, I think I have undiagnosed inattentive type ADHD, but I wouldn't have realized it except that my S got diagnosed with it and I learned more about it. I think that the ADHD is part of it. Perfectionism is part of it too, but perfectionism is only one of the many causes of procrastination. Anxiety is another, something that is probably more of a cause for me than perfectionism.

But this is a HUGE issue in our marriage and it's really not fair.

I agree it's not fair. But that is part of marriage...our spouse's faults and choices affect us negatively.

Your living conditions sound unreasonable and that is a huge problem. It sounds like you and your H need to look at the situation very carefully and make a plan. I know that's easy for me to say because I wasn't able to do that with my H when there were structural problems in our lifestyle. But nagging your H and listing projects for him to finish probably won't work...either to get it done or for your M.

And my counselor feels it is a reason for divorce if he can't respect his family enough to do something about it (And this was a Christian Pastor who told me this!)

As for procrastination being a respect/boundary issue...in my case I tried very hard to overcome procrastination, with limited success. It was never a respect issue and though H would try to set expectations for me, it's not reasonable to set a boundary that a person cannot meet in spite of trying to.

I would question whether your counselor is qualified to address your H's procrastination issues and their impact on the M. The way you've described sounds like an oversimplification on your and the counselor's part. Many people think that they understand chronic procrastination because they drag their feet on finishing their taxes, etc. But they do not understand what it's like to be paralyzed in certain areas of one's life.

A reasonable boundary for you to set is: "I want our family to have decent living conditions". I would set that as a bottom line and then problem-solve ways to get there. Your H finishing all those projects on top of having a job seems unrealistic to me, given his history. Ideally both of you would decide to hire out the work or move, both costly and undesirable options, but perhaps the lesser of the evils.

My H is not a procrastinator, but he never cared about our home and wouldn't even change lightbulbs or do anything related to maintenance...I did it all. Fortunately, we chose to live in a new apartment, so it's manageable. But I would never expect that he'd be fiddling with baseboards, etc. and I'm used to doing things myself when there is a problem even though I'm not very handy.

So I guess it comes down to how motivated you are to be married to your H. You can probably change the level of connection in your M, but it sounds like you need to cultivate some acceptance too, and learn to work around a signficant shortcoming of your H's.

[LauraOh]

Wow--my husband has SAID he thinks he is ADHD before. I definitely will look more into this.

I have been watching some of the videos--they are GREAT! Again, thanks for getting me that info!

Please don't think I am nagging my H.lol. I learned that was a no-no a LONG time ago.

No, I'm to list what needs to be done (which he and I did). Then the counselor wanted them to be put in order of importance. Then I'm to get estimates (you're right--he has no time to do these himself--it's to be hired out) Then I am to budget for them. No nagging involved. He gets to make choices, and in 3 1/2 years if he's chosen to do nothing, I get to make choices too.

The counselor may not be all that up on "perfectionism". I don't know much about it myself. I'm totally open to learning about it, and how it affects my H. I am very sympathetic in general, but...I do have to say...if I can change so much, I will be wanting him to at least TRY (aren't there meds out there for ADHD?)

I have already accepted a sex starved marriage from him. And we have a complete disconnect spiritually. And I accept moodiness, verbal outbursts, dissatisfaction, etc.

I am not a martyr. I have made the conscious choice to give my very best efforts to this man. That's who I want to be. But I have also given myself permission to not work so hard on this in 3 1/2 years if he choses to not follow me to a better marriage.

And I have LOTS of fun things to try--and lots to learn for now. Thanks for your input!

Laura

[flowmom]

Wow--my husband has SAID he thinks he is ADHD before. I definitely will look more into this.

This is something to look into. Yes, there are meds, but there are also life strategies and working around stuff that one is not great at. I haven't really started dealing with my own ADHD, but I would consider taking meds if I thought it would help with procrastination (I would consider that desperate measures).

I have been watching some of the videos--they are GREAT!

The Work is probably the most important personal development process that I have been exposed to.

Please don't think I am nagging my H.lol. I learned that was a no-no a LONG time ago.

Good

The counselor may not be all that up on "perfectionism". I don't know much about it myself. I'm totally open to learning about it, and how it affects my H. I am very sympathetic in general, but...I do have to say...if I can change so much, I will be wanting him to at least TRY (aren't there meds out there for ADHD?)

It's reasonable to ask him to try, but ADHD is a big deal if he has it...and meds are unlikely to solve all the problem, probably depends on the person how effective they are.

I guess I'm a bit confused about expectations and maybe I missed something. Didn't you say that he works 14 hour days? And he's trying to do renos on top of that? It's simply unrealistic. If he is bringing in a reasonable income as you say, and can afford to provide you with a reasonable home, then the reno thing was simply a mistake that isn't working for either of you. Otherwise his procrastination doesn't substantially affect your life in a meaningful way...am I missing something?