hey TG..I am so thankful everyone came out to help and provide advice. I really felt kind of lost yesterday. I spent the past day reading hope4luv's post in piecing..something caught my attention and then I couldn't stop reading. My situation is very similar to her sitch..my H sounds sooooooo much like her H. Just remove cat..insert dog...joking put downs..selfish with food...narcissistic tendencies. She is much better at verbalizing everything than I am. I am sorry I neglected my post.
H texted me last night to watch something on tv..I returned his text with a one word text..and I heard my phone buzzing..but I didn't even get up to look at his response. I just turned off the lights and went to sleep. I did respond to his text late this morning...but via email- he challenged me on something that I knew I was right on..so of course I had to let him know that. Darkness can wait when an opportunity to be right comes along. jk.
I typically go home during lunch to care for my dogs...to my surprise today..H was at the house. I first got pretty anxious. I had a big meeting this afternoon and was a bit worried about what kind of mood he was going to be in...and what kind of mood I would allow him to put me in. I took a deep breath and walked in. H was in a dripping sweat trying to fix something on my bike. He picked up stuff to fix my bike and everything. He couldn't get off a bolt and asked me to ask my brother for a different wrench...and said 'sorry...HONEY..I cannot get it off'. I didn't smile or even acknowledge the fact that he called me honey..I just thanked him for working on the bike. He hasn't called me honey in months. I don't know if he too was surprised that he called me honey.
I got my stuff together to go back to work..H was getting washed up..and I told him I would see him soon and began walking out..He asked me to wait so that we could walk out together. So I waited a minute or so and we walked out together. We used to always give a kiss in the driveway before work...I had no interest in it becoming uncomfortable so I didn't stop..I just walked on by him and thanked him again. He pulled up along my car in the street...and told me again to get a different wrench so he could fix my pedal. Then he was just thinking to himself..and I said "OK- see you later"..he said I am just thinking about tomorrow.."should we go get something to eat after MC or before MC..probably after right? I probably won't have time for the gym? If you want to get something to eat with me???". I told him to figure it out and I would talk to him later.
He made eye contact with me the entire time he was speaking to me. H pulled away..my phone rings two minutes later...again telling me to get a wrench so that he can get my bike fixed for me. I told him OK..thanks again. hmmmmm. I typically would be skeptical and paranoid over his niceness...but it was actually genuine. It didn't leave me with a weird feeling at all. I was so calm and confident with him..he seemed like he was self conscious in front of me. Fixing himself...messing with his hair. It was very different.
I am not getting excited over this..nor am I going to put too much thought behind it all. It was just nice to see a genuine change in him..although most likely temporary. It was definitly genuine.
My last post was for you. No response needed.I think sharing everything here is good idea. Just writing it gets your feelings out.
Be very careful with projecting his current behavior (and your feelings about it) into to the future and in your M. There is ALOT of work ahead. I think that his changing his attitude is not bad but not necessarily a reason to jump up and down either, but it is change. My W sent an email over 2 weeks ago that you would think was a huge breakthrough and nothing has budged. You have to be patient here and I still say you need to keep your distance but go to MC and see how you feel. You are definitely starting to get a sense of what they are talking about here so stay in tune with it. Be very weary(sp?) he knows how to get to you and he knows how to manipulate your feelings and he is definitely on a mission!
If you were a WAW you'd need to see alot more then him fixing your bike!
Oh! survivor man is eating grubs! man I don't think I could do that.
My goal is to some day be the person my dog thinks I am
thanks Grit. Thank you for being here for me and checking in. I wasn't very excited about today but I did see a glimmer of hope. I am not going to go off course. I am happier not obsessing about everything he is thinking about or doing...and I realize that I am unhappy when I am doing those things. It was nice to finally see him do something nice for me...not because I asked..or expected it..he did it on his own- and he went out of his way to do it. He doesn't deserve a cookie for this..he should have been doing these things all along..but a positive step for a change...and I feel like I should point out some of the positives here. I spend a great deal of time talking about his negatives..I am sure it makes it hard for anyone reading my posts to understand why I want to save my M. There is a good side to my H..although it has been hidden for far too long. But he will need to prove there is more to being in a M than being a bike mechanic.
He is very manipulative and I don't think he has changed his ways..but I guess there is now some effort there. I am nervous about MC tomorrow night. I don't know what to expect. The MC said it can be painful..I feel so good right now so I'm obviously not looking forward to the pain that she speaks of. We will see what tomorrow brings. I need to remember to remain calm and detached. I cannot let my emotions get the best of me..even during touchy subjects..which is pretty much everything that we will be focusing on. I read that when someone is trying to detach from the situation..to pretend that I am looking down on the situation instead of being part of it...if that makes any sense. Let's see how that works out for me.
Eating grubs doesn't sound so bad compared to dealing with all this chit. I would take a chewy, dirty grub any day over this. Hell..I'd gladly take a dozen.
Of course there is a good side to your H. If there wasn't you wouldn't be here. You want to carry that core into the new M or hope that he can. The negatives led to the demise of your M.
My goal is to some day be the person my dog thinks I am
so MC was a step in the right direction..followed by a slight set back.
I liked the counselor..she eluded to the fact that my H and I never really communicated very well..OK..I get that..who doesn't have an issue with this? We get along on the surface but we have a problem expressing our deep emotions. Neither one of us were exposed to parents who displayed these traits. I can see this. She wants to help us with that. My H was very uncomfortable discussing the A...MC told him that he was acting out..asked H why he was acting out..H had no answer. MC said that OW was providing him with something..he said he didnt know what..I have a feeling he was holding back. The MC asked about his cheating history..he admitted to cheating on girlfriends before me but this was his first time. Says he never intended for this to happen.
We grabbed a bite to eat afterwards. It started off OK..then H said he wasn't optimistic about everything. Said that the piece he was missing from the M was the passion. We left the restaurant and continued this conversation in the parking lot which got kind of heated. I don't want to get too personal on here...but my H always had a madonna whore complex with me...especially in the beginning. He made some accusations..then I had to point out several things he did and said prior to us being married..which he completely forgot about and it proved him wrong..and in typical H style..he left...and then proceeded to call me defensive.
Why must they rewrite history???? it is almost like they have selective alzheimers.
Brief history-My H and I started off just dating casually..we both were seeing other people. I had just gotten out of a 4 year relationship. After about a year..I started feeling differently about him..and stopped dating other people. Apparently he was feeling the same way. One day he told me he loved me and said that we needed to be exclusive..and wanted to see where this went. I never dated multiple people at the same time so the whole experience was very different than anything I ever did before. It was an easy transition into exclusivity because both of us had stopped seeing others before this point because we realized that we wanted to be together...now fast forward.
My H says that we never had that passion in the beginning and that is what he was missing. We grew to love eachother instead. I agree with this. Now I am second guessing everything. Was the way we started out the demise of our M? This wasn't an issue for 8 years (until the A)..now it is? is this a valid reason? does there really need to be a valid reason..it is the way he feels..I cannot change this.
He said that he wants to continue with MC..to figure out if what we have is worth saving. I just feel like he is pretty negative..which is kind of bringing me down and making me negative too. He said that perhaps we got together for the wrong reasons..we have the same interests..same values..same goals..great families...good friends..mutual friends..great jobs..love for travel..pretty much compatible in every way and although the love was there in the beginning...the spark wasn't big enough. Should I believe this? Is that what is important? We have had passion throughout our M...but we didnt start off that way. My H isnt a very intimate..cuddly and touchy- guy to begin with. I feel so deflated.
We talk after I get home. H apologized for his behavior. After wanting to come home..H says that it makes no sense in coming home and playing house if things aren't OK. Phew. Says he never stopped loving me..but we aren't connected. Agreed. How can we feel connected right now after all of this. H says he felt connected to me even during his A but doesnt now since our separation. Agreed. I just don't know what to do or think. The OW leaves his office in a week...will this cause the fog to lift? or is the damage too great? How do I act- I know we say go dark..but his complaint (as well as my own)..it that we aren't connected. I just don't see how this can end well.
I don't think that they way your R and M began is the demise of your M.
My W and I had the opposite beginning..it was all passion from the beginning and we M'd very soon after we met. Passion like that, if you had had it; fades in a short while anyway and then you're left to maintain the M. My W isn't into mundane life and boredom.
As you said, growing into loving each other is exactly what should've happened in my M. IMO, it's exactly how you would want your R to progress. I think your H is using that as an excuse. I just wonder if he also has an aversion to the mundane life and needs the excitement to make him feel alive or to mask inner pain and confusion.
On going dark...I don't know if that's totally necessary if the OW is out of the picture and he no longer actively in an A. If you can get to a place where you're comfortable conversing with him and trust that he's not in an A; I suggest that you do not be dark. Heck, you just went to a counseling session; you're going to need to communicate to get positive results.
thanks MC. Before getting off the phone with him last night..I validated what he said by telling him he was right- we lacked passion..our R started off differently..and agreed we had issues in our M..I got a text this morning telling me to calm down and not pack his stuff up yet..I didn't respond but he called me afterwards.
This morning he tells me that we had everything else but that spark and that we never had it. I told him that if we didnt have that spark..we would have remained just friends and never have stayed together for 10 years. H said that he was concerned about that before getting M but thought that it wasn't a big deal..he could live without it...but has realized he was missing it.
You read so many articles about soul mates and chemistry etc. Do they really exist? My highly charged relationships always fizzled for me...my R with my H was different.. These passion conversations are starting to make me think that I am missing it too. We have had passionate times..but not that high school..can't keep my hands off of you feelings. I never really thought about it until now. I guess I always valued compatability over passion. Maybe I should rethink this??
My H does have an aversion to mundane life- for sure. The MC asked my H if he was depressed. My H said he didn't know..he has always felt this way so he doesn't know anything else. His relationship with the OW was lots of drama..breaking up..getting back together..breaking up..getting back together. Very highly charged..from what I have gathered. Also very immature. The MC asked a few questions about the OW- "is she educated" and "would you take her home to your mother". First answer was no..but inquisitive. Second answer was "not according to my mother". I bit my tongue..but I wanted to say- not according to anyone's mother.
What does it take to make a M successful..like you said MC- your relationship started off high passion and you think it should have gone the other way. Is it just that nobody is ever happy with what they have? or is it people want what they can't have? How many times do you hear a Spouse saying that they have a great H/W, he's a great father/mother, we have a great life..and yet they feel something is lacking. Is it really that they havent found their soulmate? I don't think my H is my soulmate..partially because I am not sure I believe in that..but I have accepted him and loved him for all that he is..and for all that he wasn't. He wasn't the hottest man I have ever dated..but he had many qualities that attracted me to him.
I know..I cannot really go dark right now although part of me wants to. I believe the A is over..but I am not sure in his mind he closed the door. I am mind reading..but I think he is thinking "I will give this all a shot..and if this doesn't work out..she is waiting there" (she has no better offers on the table). We are having dinner tomorrow night. I am going to have my own MLC after all of this.
I see two very good things happening here. Your H wants to stay in MC and it seems that one session was a good vehicle to get you and your H talking.
I know you know this but one session is just one session and it is not surprising he feels negative about it. C'ing is hard and a very deep/emotional process and it can be draining and eye opening which IMO naturally leads to negative feelings.
I am not sure I really buy the whole 'soul mate' ideal. Sure, I do think some people are better suited than others but I don't think there is just ONE person out there for all of us.
Long term R's versus short term R's (lust) are much different. I think in long term R's love changes as time passes and if you don't work at certain things the love can change to mundane. When two people are consumed by LIFE (bills, work, children, running a household, family and so on) the R changes. When you talk about "high school love" well, it is very easy to have nothing but lust when there is no "real life" issues to attend to.
That IMO is exactly why affairs are so filled with lust. It is all a fantasy with no problems or day to day "real life" issues to deal with. The two affair partners don't share things like bills, children or a house so every bit of time and energy can be focused to the affair and that alone, that escape, is a lustful image. Who wouldn't want a highly charged sexual R with NO problems and no real life issues to deal with?
I posted this on another thread but I have a lifelong and dear friend who is going through sort of a rough patch in his marriage. His wife is a terrific person and they love each other and there is no talk of separation but things have gotten mundane after 10 years. They both commute and work very long hours, they have a little girl and after working and tending to their daughter they are simply exhausted and sort of going through the motions. They both say they want that "fire" back but just aren't sure how to get it.
My H is still with his affair partner and has been for 2+ years and their R is very much what you described with your H and his OW. The drama, the breaking up, the fighting... really immature stuff. I am amazed my H tolerates it because he hates drama and fighting (or he used to, lol!). In a way I wonder if that sort of adds to the "fire". Stability in a R is a good thing as long as it is not taken for granted.
I am sort of just babbling here but I do think you and your H have made some very good steps even if you feel they are twinged with negativity. C'ing is not comfortable so many people do feel negative about it. I think it's pretty common.
Thanks CG...I guess it is a good thing H is going to MC. I guess this latest experience is going to force me to look at myself and my issues here too. There were many things in our M, or my H, that I didn't love. I rarely to never vocalized any of these things. Maybe I put his needs before mine..or perhaps I was mainly happy in life so I didn't put much weight on these issues..meaning- they didn't bother me that much. I also had the thought process "love me for who I am"...so i tried to do the same to him..and not try to change him. Besides the fact that I was always much more easy going than my H. This is not to say that insult spewing never occurred..but it was infrequent on my end and usually tied to PMS.
If D is a result of choosing wrong...why do so many of us get it wrong then? and then get it wrong a 2nd time? Do we really marry for the wrong reasons? or do we just have unrealistic expectations from M and from life in general? Maybe my expectations are too low..and that is why I was mostly satisfied in my M and still trying to save it after all the hurt.
CG- my H's A was about 2 years as well. The OW has no sense of reality..never M..two kids..two different fathers..two extramarital affairs in one office. My H has been listening to her delusional outlook on life. My H said that the OW left her baby daddy #2 because she didn't love him- he only provided her with stability. They foreclosed on the house they just bought and now she lives with her 2 kids in an apartment in a chitty town. Baby daddy #2 has 4 kids with 3 different mothers..she stayed with him and mothered his 4th child because she was looking for stability? Just out of touch with reality.
Is there always someone in a R/M that is less invested? Does a R/M exist where the power/control/interest is equally distributed?
The positive signs that I can see despite my H negativity...he still shows signs of jealousy..asking who I went out to dinner with over the weekend..where I was today etc. I feel like he flounders back and forth..tells me that I need to make him my priority in the future..and then talks like there is no future. Perhaps when the OW is completely out of the picture..he will be able to reevaluate things a little bit better. All this contemplation makes me feel like I am missing something...and perhaps what we had wasn't enough..but then the rational side of me knows that the grass isn't always greener and that a new R/M does not mean a dissolvement of issues. It is just a clean slate to start accumulating them again.
I would take a chewy, dirty grub any day over this. Hell..I'd gladly take a dozen.