I was wondering about this. I mean, I feel much calmer now that I am more aware of my situaction not being a sure indication that my M is done for. But now that I have been much better wife, no pressure , very minimun nagging (really) and confronting life just a bit more relax, I find myself thinking, should I initiate sex now? or should I wait for him to approach me when he is ready? I am a bit scared now, because I don't want to send all my good efforts to hell by rushing him, but I am getting this nagging feeling that H is relieved I am not pressuring him anymore,and totally misundertanding my actions, thinking I am not being more respectful or considerate, so he won't fell threatened, BUT BECAUSE I just gave up and came to "my senses" about my "unreasonable" need for sex, so now we both agree that there was not reason to get all so worked up about it in the first place. I am being very honest here, because NOTHING is happening, and I mean NOTHING. I used to get a little "groping" before, ya' know , a very nice sort of way, but now, not even that! and I am not sure if I should say something, because every time I do, he tells me I am attacking him again! besides, I am not supposed to nag at him remember?
What am I supposed to do, how do I know my approach is even working? or if I am doing me in even more?
Just a quick question: the changes you've made -- no pressure, minimum nagging, etc. -- how long has it been since you started to improve (i.e., "less" pressure") and how long since you've "finished" improving ("no" pressure)? The reason I ask is that I know at times in my own relationship, while I may think I'm doing noticeably better, it's only because I know my own thoughts and, to my W, my efforts are still below (or just barely visible on) her radar screen. I also bet that to you, it feels like just about forever.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that it will take awhile before your husband even consciously notices the changes. Then, after he does, he may well decide to wait awhile longer to see if you "mean it." Of course, he may also just be dense, too; I know I've heard that from my wife often enough.
Also, are these changes ones you're making because you feel you should -- in other words, that they're things you feel you should change regardless of your husband's reaction -- or because you're expecting your husband to notice and reciprocate? If they're not for yourself, they're not genuine, and he'll probably pick up on that as well. But assuming they are because you truly want to change for yourself, be patient, and he will start changing. Believe me, I know how hard and long the waiting can seem. Hang in there!
HERE is Edward Bear, coming downstairs now, bump, bump, bump, on the back of his head, behind Christopher Robin...sometimes he feels that there really is another way [of coming downstairs], if only he could stop bumping for a moment and think of it.
I was wondering about this. I mean, I feel much calmer now that I am more aware of my situaction not being a sure indication that my M is done for. But now that I have been much better wife, no pressure , very minimun nagging (really) and confronting life just a bit more relax, I find myself thinking, should I initiate sex now? or should I wait for him to approach me when he is ready? I am a bit scared now, because I don't want to send all my good efforts to hell by rushing him, but I am getting this nagging feeling that H is relieved I am not pressuring him anymore,and totally misundertanding my actions, thinking I am not being more respectful or considerate, so he won't fell threatened, BUT BECAUSE I just gave up and came to "my senses" about my "unreasonable" need for sex, so now we both agree that there was not reason to get all so worked up about it in the first place. I am being very honest here, because NOTHING is happening, and I mean NOTHING. I used to get a little "groping" before, ya' know , a very nice sort of way, but now, not even that! and I am not sure if I should say something, because every time I do, he tells me I am attacking him again! besides, I am not supposed to nag at him remember?
What am I supposed to do, how do I know my approach is even working? or if I am doing me in even more?
HELP!
I thought I would chime in on this thread. I would have to ask the same question as Vanot. How long have you been working at this? Maybe you're like me, you want instant results and feel discouraged when they don't happen. Look for the little things. My W slipping and calling me "honey" a couple times last week was a good small step. There have been other small signs as well. Are you looking low enough for those small good signs?
What I mean is are you looking for an elephant in the kitchen and using it as a gauge for success but missing the little ants milling around your feet. This anology is silly I know. Look for the small signs.
Go about your business for yourself. I'm sure you're a fine looking lady so don't doubt that. Try a new fashion statement. For yourself. He will notice it. My W hasn't really made a fashion statement other than wearing a tight girly girl shirt. But I noticed.
Just do it for you and he will notice. Once again, I ramble and I'm sorry.
I was absent for a bit of time, trying to cope with the sadness of the sitch.
To answer you question, I have been applying the principles for about 3 weeks now, I know is not very long, but before that I was pretty good too, no approaching for sex, just backing off.
It has been 2 1/2 months since we last have sex, if that is what you want to call a 5 minute hurried up, lets get this done kind of thing. And for that I waited a month, and for the previous another month.
We used to have sex once a week in the beginning, which made me so miserable, now I see that as the good old days ...I feel like crying.
Since his depression started our sex life has gone down hill, but I don't think he is depressed anymore...truly, besides his depression was mild. I am getting angry that he is using the depression defense now as a way of justifying his lack of interest. I am not being harsh, really. I haven't even voiced my suspitions to him, since I prefer to say nothing in case I am mistaken and I cause more damage than anything else. I am being very loving and no nagging at all.
Also I have started to take care of me again. My anger and pain had me so consumed that I stopped taking care of me, now I went and got a great hair cut, I bought some new clothes and I have just started to exercise again.
Even though the book tells me I am in the right path I have this nagging feeling that he thinks he is off the hook instead.
I am so sad that every time I read the SSM book I start to cry (he doesn't know this, he thinks I am happier now)
See, the problem is that he is very loving , hugs and kisses (well gradmother kisses, but I take them anyway), he hold me all the time and is soooo painful that I can't go any further with this. I used to start things from there, now, I just hug him and kiss him with enthusiasm, just like he does, but THERE IS NEVER EVEN A HINT OF SEXUAL DESIRE, nothing, nada from him. Is like he think sex doesn't exist.
I don't know if this is the right approach anymore
Msm there is not reason why you cannot talk to your H about this. The point is that you will not be always on at him, nagging him or turning every hug into something more when he doesn't want that.
Find a way to have a good talk about it that will not lead to either of you getting upset or an argument. Get him to tell you what he is prepared to do. Then leave it alone and see if he does actually do what he said he would.
Another thing that seems to help some people is seeing a counsellor have you considered this?
I've been lurking on this forum for a long time, but reading your thread has brought me out of hiding. I, too, am a HD wife with a LD husband. My sitch was quite similar to yours in several respects - our sexual frequency was never where I wanted it to be, my H struggled silently with depression for years which decreased his desire, and the lack of sexual intimacy really did a number on my self-esteem.
I use the past tense because our situation just became more and more tense, until I finally moved out in Sept 2002. We are still married and we have been in marriage counseling since I moved out, but sadly we have made no progress on "the sex thing" during the past 14 (!) months.
Some things I've learned...
I feel better having more distance from my H. Since he doesn't seem to desire me, I would rather not live with him. It was just too painful to be with someone I love so dearly and feel so rejected all the time. I'm not advocating that you move out - I do believe that moving out is an absolute and desperate last resort and that all other avenues should be explored first.
Joint marriage counseling has helped us. Counseling has provided us with scheduled time to talk about our relationship with a neutral third party. The conversations H and I would have about sex (before I moved out) were too charged with emotion to be constructive. Counseling provides a "safe" place for us to talk about difficult subjects - and I found that it is a great reality check since my tendency is to blame myself for my H's lack of desire. Hearing someone else say "it's not about you" has helped me deal with the pain I felt throughout our SSM. If you can at all get your H into counseling, do so. I had to move out before my H would agree to see a counselor with me.
Try not to take this personally. Oh how I wish I could really wrap my brain around this point! I know it's really hard. I've found that being with people who love me (friends, family), pampering myself and doing things that I enjoy have helped me slowly build my self-esteem. To be frank, I still struggle with low PMA days and bad self-esteem, but it's much better now than it was a year ago.
I guess I wrote this post simply to tell you that I hear and understand where you are coming from. The despair that a HD wife feels in a SSM is absolutely crushing. If you need an empathetic ear, I'm listening.
You have no idea how much you helped me with your words. The simple fact that there are some people out there that understand, truly understand how devastating a SSM can be , specially when is the wife that is HD. This is because we already as women have all sorts of image problems to begging with. Me, I always thought I was pretty hot, not mayor body issues, but if you ask me know, I don't even allow him to see me get dress, my self esteem is at all times low.
I am not saying that the men out there that are HD have it easy or is less painful, just that the extra layer of "going against the current" behavior is not there .
I had a conversation with my husband last Saturday and it when very well actually, but later over the weekend other issues come up. It all started when I was very upset that day, it was a weekend, the only time when we ever made love and that day he was looking particularly lovable , unfortunately as soon as that thought registered in my head, I started trying to make it go away, since I was not to do anything to initiate sex, as agreed and he was (like alway) obviously busy on his things and not paying any kind of attention to me.
I had been able to hold it together well for the past month or so, but I don't know why I got so upset, I had to go to the bathroom to cry because I couldn't help myself when a huge wave of pain got me. I started crying with hiccup and everything. After I calmed down , I thought I had to say or do something, because I was going to explode later, if I didn't do anything. I asked him if we could talk. He started getting defensive , telling me that we have said everything there was to say about the subject and that we had agreed to "wait it out" until the depression was gone and he felt more normal , and therefore more sexual, since now it was just not there. I don't know what I did differently this time, but even though he started to get all defensive and angry about me wanting to "beat a dead horse" one more time , I just stopped talking altogether and let him talk, he, for the first time actually talked for the whole extend of the discussion, not me. I was the one listening, very attentively I may add. He told me the things that were affecting him, his frustrations and why he felt so depresed, he even ackwoledged that many of his problems were his own doing (the Town we moved in, which he despises, the over the top investment on his work, which ended up being a huge disapointment to him, etc)I just listened to him. He ended up telling me that everything was going to be fine. I couldnt believe I was hearing right, that we were going to have a better marriage, etc. I was very relieved after that, you know? at least I know he is talking to me about his frustrations, that is a huge difference from before, and also that he knows there is a problem and that he will work on it. He even promised me that we were going to start spending more time together and that evening he taught me how to play 500, a card game, since he enjoys them a lot (btw, I don't like card games, but what the heck, I am just happy to see interest from his side).
Well, then, the following day, like other times, he worked all night in his office. I woke up at maybe 3AM and went very quietly to his office, I looked in and saw that he was looking at some nude pictures he gets from a subscription through his e-mail (even before we were even dating), I have seen them before,most of them are actually quite pretty, more erotic and artistic that anything else and as soon as I saw them I went numb, you know? I was very sleepy, but I think I was in a bit of a shock, so I made a small noise to let him know I was there, I asked him if he was going to go to bed and then I just when back to bed, when he said no. He obviously hided the picture as soon as he saw me, since one time we had a huge fight about them( as a side note, before I didn't have a problem with those pictures, since I didn't feel replaced by them at that time) He followed me to bed and hugged me for at least 10 minutes. I was just not talking or saying anything, I, even today don't know how to react, is this a good sign? I mean, is his sexual side returning a bit, so he is looking at the pictures, since they are "safe" for him, or is this a bad sign? more like I am really being replaced and his very low sexual energy is being spend elsewhere?
Reading your last post brought up all sorts of memories of how sexually repressed and conflicted I'd become in my M. I wanted to touch my H so badly, but I became too afraid of rejection and starting another "sex" argument to try initiating after a while. But waiting for my H to initiate never seemed to work, either. I'd do the same thing you did - wait and wait and wait and wait until... KABOOM! I'd blow up in frustration and anger. Then the cycle would begin again.
I think it's a BIG DEAL that your H opened up to you about his feelings. I don't know how men's brains work (wish I did!), but admitting weakness, fear of failure and disappointment seems to be very very tough for them. Not macho, I guess. The fact that your H opened up to you indicates to me that he trusts you and that he wants to work on the relationship with you. Maybe he can't give sexually right now because he's in too much pain... but maybe by opening up to you, he can start dealing with the pain instead of drowning in it.
About the porn... I wish I knew the answer. My H also liked to sneak peeks now and then - which I chose to take as a positive sign - but he would get horribly embarrassed when I suggested that we watch a porno together, etc.
In counseling we figured out that my H put me on a pedestal in our M. He saw me as his wife, a person that he loved very much and wanted to take care of... but he couldn't see me as a sexual woman who needed a good roll in the hay now and then. I think his attitude stemmed from a low self-esteem on his part, a "I'm a loser, why is she with me?" mentality that just destroyed his libido.
<sigh> I wish I'd known all of this before it got so out-of-control! I was taking his rejection personally and looking inward when I could have been looking for ways to support him and build up his self-confidence.
Differences in libido in a M, just like any other differences within a M (or perhaps even more so than other differences since it is such a sensitive subject) takes a lot of hard work to overcome. It may also take a long time to reach an understanding between the two partners.
So you're in for a long ride (it can't be solved overnight especially if you're also dealing with depression, whether mild or otherwise - its still a mental block to overcome). Since your sitch cannot change overnight, you might as well learn how to deal with it in the best possible way. We cannot control our sitch or the way our Hs feel but we can control how WE feel about it. We can control our own reactions to the sitch or "rejection" as we see it.
Like you, I am the HD W married to a LD H. I've learned to accept that its not about me. It really isn't. I used to question myself so much, lose my self confidence and self esteem. I would cry, I would wait, I would try to explain nicely, then I got impatient and I screamed, I would feel rejected, feel unloved, have poor self image and became ashamed of my body. Its natural to feel this way but also very silly, negative and unproductive don't you think?
While you're trying to solve this issue in your M it is best that you have some coping mechanism for yourself. Here are some suggestions:
- when you find yourself crying about the sitch, stop yourself, don't think so hard about the sitch, in other words, don't try to analyse too deeply about what your H must be thinking, why doesn't he want or desire you anymore etc (you don't know, only he knows what he is thinking). Just stop yourself and go do something else that you enjoy.
- if you find yourself being unhappy about the 5 minute LM sessions you've been having, don't! I felt really miserable once when H came and initiated things one morning while I was still asleep (after having screamed about the sitch the day before), I wasn't even ready, it was hurried and it hurt and I felt that he only wanted to do it to shut me up but I've learned to look at it another way from some great suggestions from this board. Its a real act of love when the LD spouse does it because they think it will make you happy even if its the last thing they feel like doing.
- relax about the porn. Men are visual creatures after all. And remember its not about you. I think that LD men have the extra pressure of performance anxiety, so maybe porn doesn't give them that anxiety. Don't question yourself, don't pursue and don't pressure them as it will only make the performance anxiety worse. And why not be open with your H about the porn. Tell him that he doesn't have to hide them from you or be secretive about it. Have confidence in yourself and stop thinking that you're being replaced. Unless your H has a porn addiction, you're not.
- I think that its great that your H opened up to you about his problems. Its a great starting point. The point is to build your M up in other areas (like communication for example) so that you are both better equipped to deal with the differences in your libido in a non threatening manner. Be patient in the meantime. You don't want to turn this into such a huge issue between you that it becomes even harder to overcome.
- remember too that you can be intimate with your H without the sexual part for now. I love to be close to my H and to touch him and theres nothing to stop me from giving him loving massages (which he loves), hugs and kisses etc. Don't fret that they're the non passionate ones. You can stay connected that way until you get back the passion.
I'm busy now so have to go but hope this helps you a little.
LH
, unfortunately as soon as that thought registered in my head, I started trying to make it go away, since I was not to do anything to initiate sex, as agreed and he was (like alway) obviously busy on his things and not paying any kind of attention to me.
The fact that your H opened up to you indicates to me that he trusts you and that he wants to work on the relationship with you. Maybe he can't give sexually right now because he's in too much pain... but maybe by opening up to you, he can start dealing with the pain instead of drowning in it.