flowmom | need to commit to myself

[flowmom]

You put it well rr. I guess my problem is that I don't have a clear sense of what a good mix of earning and custody would be for me. I'm not feeling confident in my field due to doing very little work, and I'm not feeling confident about productivity because I have done miserably at the since the S (and have a rough history with that anyway).

The more I think about it the more I think that I just have to put the ball in H's court. "What do you want?" "What do you think is realistic?" "Can you be specific about dollar figures?". My earning is not just constrained by my procrastination issues...I have contracts that start and end, and stall etc. H basically wants me to report the minutiae to him so that he can make microdecisions based on whether his work agendas that day are more important than mine, etc. Which is not a realistic way in the long term. But if I get all hardcore about anything, I see that as an obvious trigger for D proceedings.

[CityGirl]

I am begging you with all my heart to please see an attny. You don't have to tell anyone you are meeting with an attny. You don't have to commit, retain or file/sign anything but you do need information before you decide anything with your H.

I don't know how divorce works exactly in Canada but I did read a bit to get a general idea. You have some very special circumstances... you have a borderline special needs son, a H with an incurable disease, you have not worked steadily in a very long time, your H mingled his own business debt with the family finances and you and your H agreed to home school your children. That alone makes the financial situation a bit less cut and dry and one I would not speak about until you have the guidance of an attny. I know you feel it will trigger a divorce and it might but at this point you must protect yourself.

Also, you must look at the current circumstances. IIRC correctly you said you and your H own a one bedroom apartment. It sounds like the children share the bedroom and you sleep elsewhere. If that is the case why did your H need a 2 bedroom? The family never had a two bedroom yet he opted to tax the financial situation further by renting a 2 bedroom place. He essentially upgraded HIS living situation and now is relying on you to help pay for it. No.

IMO asking him what he thinks is realistic is fruitless as obviously he thought him moving to a 2 bedroom WAS realistic when clearly the finances do not allow him to do that without your help.

I understand the self employment issue. We are not paid every week or every other week like a 9-5 job. I can go months without getting paid then all of a sudden a bunch of contracts end or pay out at once. IOW, you have not established a pattern of a steady income. If you offer your H a dollar amount or he tells you what he feels you should be earning you could become locked in and that is not a place you want to be. It would not be unheard of to be granted spousal support for X amount of years for you to (A) find full time work that is steady and reliable or (B) become educated in another field.

This is why I really don't understand your DB Coach advice to affirm your H for working hard for the family. A large part of the reason he has to work so hard is because he went in to debt and now is adding further stress to you (a full time mom, full time homeschooler and very part time earner) so his desire to separate can be funded.

IMO your H has set nothing but UNreasonable expectations for a very, very long time. Why do you think NOW he will start to think reasonably and set reasonable expectations as far as finances, childcare and your earning?

This is not about getting hardcore. Clearly your H's patterns of behavior are not going to change right now. In fact, his expectations seem to be more unreasonable and more stringent and without legal advice I would not engage him further.

Your H had a very clear idea of how this will go and now that it is not going quite as smooth as he thought, well, he wants to push more burden back on you. Working hard for the family does not mean bringing in money. His hard work for the family should include dealing with his issues (much harder than earning an income) so the family can remain in tact. He has opted not to do that. Fine. But adding further strain to you is only something you can control.

[ImprovedRomeo]

FM, my feeling is that the meeting should be strictly about him doing the talking and you listening. Just see what he wants, what his expectations are. Prepare yourself for the worst possible things he can ask you and how you'd react. If he pressures you into agreeing/disagreeing you can say "I hear what you're saying but I'll need some time to think about it."

I totally agree with r22, you should go out to a public place to discuss this. Not just to subside your fears but also a nicer setting will probably lead to a more friendlier conversation between you two.

And yes, you should be looking for an atty. I know it's one of the hardest things you'll ever do. I've done it once and I have to do it again and it's still very hard but you're so much smarter and stronger than me, just do it!

[flowmom]

CG I am going to see a L. My IC's advice NOT to set me back because I was counting on him to advise me on who to see.

IIRC correctly you said you and your H own a one bedroom apartment.

No, we have a 3 br apartment.

If that is the case why did your H need a 2 bedroom?

When we separated he said it was so that it was an appropriate dwelling for the children for custody -- they have their own bedroom

IMO asking him what he thinks is realistic is fruitless as obviously he thought him moving to a 2 bedroom WAS realistic when clearly the finances do not allow him to do that without your help.

I agree with that. But right now he wants me to be part of fixing this mess and doing everything in my power to do that. If I make him spell out his expectations (which I doubt he's done to himself), it shifts the focus from him being mad at me and blaming me to making it more business-like. Then I can address his expectations directly and challenge areas where it's unrealistic, if that's the case.

It would not be unheard of to be granted spousal support for X amount of years for you to (A) find full time work that is steady and reliable or (B) become educated in another field.

Spousal support wouldn't be that much though...Our home has almost doubled in value and if I had to buy H out paying the mortgage would be a serious issue. But I need to get some number crunching happening.

This is why I really don't understand your DB Coach advice to affirm your H for working hard for the family.

It's a 180: I didn't express enough appreciation for H in our M and I realize now how damaging that was. He still is working very hard to pay for the home where I live and the food that I eat. He is not playing financial hardball with me (yet) so I do have reason to be grateful.

IMO your H has set nothing but UNreasonable expectations for a very, very long time. Why do you think NOW he will start to think reasonably and set reasonable expectations as far as finances, childcare and your earning?

I don't think he will, I just want to force him to be explicit about his expectations so that it gets onto business, not venting/blaming.

Your H had a very clear idea of how this will go and now that it is not going quite as smooth as he thought, well, he wants to push more burden back on you.

Yes, surprise surprise getting rid of me doesn't fix everything about his life. But he's found a way to still make it my fault.

Working hard for the family does not mean bringing in money. His hard work for the family should include dealing with his issues (much harder than earning an income) so the family can remain in tact. He has opted not to do that. Fine. But adding further strain to you is only something you can control.

Yes.

[CityGirl]

My apologies. I thought you had said you had a one bedroom apartment when you were talking about your H's sleep issues. Well, scratch that part of my post then!

See, I understand what you are saying and the logic behind it about dealing with this finance stuff as business and not going down the blame road. I really get that. But if you ASK your H his expectations they could be (A) unreasonable or (B) figures given to him by an attny. That is why you should not have this talk with him before you seek counsel. That way you can have a very clear idea about where his numbers are coming from.

NY (where I live) classes me as an unhealthy person as I have a chronic and incurable disease. It would not matter if I was 15, 25, 35 or 85. Unless a cure for Lupus is discovered this state deems me as unhealthy for the remainder of my life. Health status is part of the criteria for spousal support here. Do you know if it is part of the criteria/consideration in Canada? If so your H's health status could be an issue.

I am not saying it will be, I simply am pointing out that there are many factors we (generally speaking) don't really think of when we start dividing things up or thinking of finances. I felt, well, stupid with being deemed unhealthy. It's not like I can't go about my life as normally as possible. I am just saying there might be factors that you learned to live with that in fact will be included when figuring in long term monetary plans.

As an outsider to your situation I would really suggest you see an attny BEFORE you talk to your H. That way you will have a very clear idea if his expectations are his own or coming from an attny.

Your H might be paying the bills but he is also requesting more help. IMO that is *his* leverage and I would hate to see you fall in that trap.

[flowmom]

CG, can you point me to your thread?

NY (where I live) classes me as an unhealthy person as I have a chronic and incurable disease. It would not matter if I was 15, 25, 35 or 85. Unless a cure for Lupus is discovered this state deems me as unhealthy for the remainder of my life. Health status is part of the criteria for spousal support here. Do you know if it is part of the criteria/consideration in Canada? If so your H's health status could be an issue.

It could. Realistically, unless a drug comes through in the next couple of years (which IS possible, there are a lot of trials), his health will increasingly become affected. His kidney function is down to 40% and it won't improve, only get worse.

You're right that it's as important to figure out what his L is telling him as it to find out what my "rights" are...which I think given our sitch probably aren't totally cut and dried.

[rr22]

You can't homeschool and work full-time. It's impossible and unhealthy for you, FM.

And this: It's a 180: I didn't express enough appreciation for H in our M and I realize now how damaging that was. He still is working very hard to pay for the home where I live and the food that I eat. He is not playing financial hardball with me (yet) so I do have reason to be grateful.


Oh well. You need to strike a balance with this. Stop beating yourself up about the past. He also did not express enough appreciation for you. And he pushed having kids. Now he wants out of all of the above. Stop feeling guilty for decisions and actions and dysfunctions that you were only fifty percent of.

[Gardener]

okay, fm, I've been rereading back a ways:
First, I agree with EVERYTHING CityGirl says here.
You must - MUST - speak with an attorney.
What does your IC say about this no-win almost cowering-in-a-corner (despite doing more for the family than he does) defensive stance H keeps you in?
Your H basically has you believing that you owe it to him to rescue him and save him from a financial mess of his making so he can finally be through with you, imo.
Call whatever free Legal Aid Society or free Women's Advocacy counseling programs/resources are available.

Should I push him for specifics (like how much he wants me to earn, etc.)?

Only if you are his chattel and he is your master. AND

IMO asking him what he thinks is realistic is fruitless as obviously he thought him moving to a 2 bedroom WAS realistic when clearly the finances do not allow him to do that without your help.

he tells you what he feels you should be earning

This alone is ludicrous. What kind of man male is he?

a full time mom, full time homeschooler and very part time earner

is more than sufficiently pulling your own weight, fulfilling your responsibilities to your family. As current "head" of the family is he working a second or third job to resolve theses messes that he's caused?
Also,

I am afraid of his anger because he looks like he wants to physically fight when he is angry. He has never been physically abusive to me and I'm not worried about that, but I still feel intimidated...it's more like feeling as if I'm a bug under a pin when he's angry.

This is not good. This is controlling. He is consciously intimidating you, keeping you off balance. He, frankly is a f*ck up and tries to get you believe you are one or the cause of him being one.

H basically wants me to report the minutiae to him so that he can make microdecisions based on whether his work agendas that day are more important than mine, etc.

Control, control, control.

the part that I'm afraid of...that that would get the D ball rolling so that he could financially "protect" himself.

Completely, 100% backwards. Make this one of your first questions to your lawyer. If the D ball starts to roll, he is not going to be "protected", he is going to be at least on the hook to take care of his family better financially, and at the most, he'll be nailed to the wall. He knows this. He is trying to avoid this!
Talk to a lawyer!

fm, I'm sorry for being so strident but your sitch - and males like H - infuriates me!
I can't wait to hear from you after you see a lawyer (REAL SOON))

Hugs and strength to you (((fm)))

[flowmom]

Joining the cult

3 things for Flo today:

1. went for a 15 min run (still dealing with the respiratory issues that have been plaguing me since the S)

2. chanted for 5 minutes and actually had a spiritual experience which kind of took me by surprise

3. planning to go to the thrift store to buy clothes. I have nothing to wear but don't want to invest in clothes until my weight stabilizes. I've lost 22 lbs (now smack in the middle of the "healthy" weight range) and that's a lot of sizes.

[rr22]

Gardener said: Should I push him for specifics (like how much he wants me to earn, etc.)?
Only if you are his chattel and he is your master.


Hilarious.