How can you fight and compete with the OP and not lose you self esteem after a while? That you are content to live in limbo with a person courting 2 people at once. It does not seem possible Harley states that it usually causes PTSD esp for women
That is the rub, yes. The longer it takes, not only is the greater toll exacted on the family's finances, the kids' emotional health, etc., but also the greater toll on the betrayed spouse.
And that's not even ADDRESSING the greater risk of STDs and even AIDS.
I think it is the rare person who can "stand" for more then 6-9 months. Some can do it for one or two years, but even then, I think it takes a heavy toll.
For men, especially, it can be downright emasculating, and then there's the whole "schmuck factor" thing -- no one wants to be played a fool.
From a post of mine to another poster, awhile ago:
Quote:
I think you let her know that you are here for her when she is ready to do the work necessary She clearly isn't ready to do that right now.
It would convey weakness if you were to be supplicating towards her while she was still actively cheating on you, and disrespecting her boundaries. Letting her know that you are willing to suck it up, forgive, love unconditionally and do the hard work of reconciliation -- when she is ready -- does NOT convey weakness, it conveys character and strength.
Many, many people confuse "unconditional love" with "doormat-without-boundaries." It is entirely possible -- and NECESSARY -- to demonstrate unconditional love and forgiveness, within a framework of healthy boundaries.
Do you not love a child unconditionally, while at the same time not allowing them to use obscenity when speaking to you? Do you not love a spouse, while simultaneously not allowing them to berate you in front of another couple?
Those are just two silly examples, but I think this is where you're getting hung up. Us men have a REALLLLL hard time with the whole "schmuck factor" thing, and it really rears its head when there is infidelity involved. We don't like to be made a fool. But if your "standing" for your marriage is PART OF A PLAN -- YOUR plan -- then who's the schmuck here? You take a position of "Yes, I am, at the moment, deciding to stand for my marriage, even though my wife is having an affair and is refusing to admit it and work at the marriage, but I have made this choice to do this FOR A PERIOD OF TIME, and I will hold out as long as I can, all the while trying to lay out and enforce healthy boundaries for me and my children. My wife is an adult, I cannot control her, and I'm praying that she comes to her senses soon, before my love for her fully runs out, but I can hold on for "x" months and I will do so, to the best of my ability. This is MY decision, this is MY stand, and I am doing it with boundaries, legal/financial protections for me and my kids, and for a finite period (uncommunicated to spouse -- just tell her "I won't wait forever") of time."
My wife asked me both during -- and after -- her affair, why I was fighting for her. Why I hadn't kicked her out immediately. I told her:
- because I took a wedding vow, before God, and I took that very seriously. It was not "for better or for better yet," it was "for better or for WORSE";
- because I loved her, and we had a lot of shared history together;
- because I didn't want to demonstrate to our four children that when things get tough, you cut and run. You make a stand and fight for what is important to you, for as long as you can, to the best of your ability;
- because if the situation were reversed, and I had say a gambling or alcohol addiction, I would hope that she would do the same and fight for ME;
- and because I didn't want to go to my death bed with REGRETS, that I should have tried harder. If I was going to err, I was going to err on the side of trying to save my marriage and keep my family intact.
When you lay out (and maybe even write down), what YOUR OWN reasons are, and give yourself an internal deadline (6 months, one year, whatever) . . . then I think, as a man, we can feel like WE are executing a plan, and that we're not being a "schmuck."
M38, H37 S3, S7 Together 15 yrs Married 8 yrs Bomb July 2008 Inhouse separation "I hate you" "We are over" (too many times to count) Reconciled Sept 2009 (still worth it)
M38, H37 S3, S7 Together 15 yrs Married 8 yrs Bomb July 2008 Inhouse separation "I hate you" "We are over" (too many times to count) Reconciled Sept 2009 (still worth it)
This has been a very interesting thread with alot of opinions whose advice I usually read and apply to my stitch. Alot of well respected veterans have replied to this thread and it is interesting to see all of your different perspectives. This is what makes this board unique and helpful.
Lotus, I remember you and june72 commenting on my stitch and you gave very valuable advice to me at the time...your advice was to LEAVE. See, you looked at my stitch along with others and saw what I couldn't see at the time. I have left but I couldn't do it at the time that you and others were telling me but I did come to that conclusion on my own eventually.
Allen and others have given me the advice on what to do in the midst of my husband being in an affair and I have noticed results with that as well. His advice gave me hope of what to do even while being separated.
My point is that all of the advice on this board is for the most part given with good intentions but it is ultimately up to the person listening to the advice to decide what to do in regards to their own stitch.
Me: 28 H: 32 1st marriage 4 both 1 1/2 year married 2gether for 9 1S: 6months 1stepson: 2yo
Yes, many times people assume that all situations are like. If the situation is one of infidelity, then they might project their situation onto the one seeking advice. But all situations are not alike. And the people involved come to it with different histories, and different ways of interacting. Human relationships are very complex. There is no one size fits all solution. I do think that some posters are so angry in their own lives that they bring that anger to every situation that they see.
Lotus, I hear what you are saying, and it is of course sometimes true. But I actually think most INFIDELITY situations, anyway, DO follow one of only a few basic "scripts," and that more people actually make the OPPOSITE mistake, thinking "Oh, my situation is DIFFERENT!" and "MY wife would NEVER do that! I trust her completely!"
It's almost scary how SIMILAR the sitches are. It's how I'm usually able to predict what's going to happen next; it has nothing to do with any uncanny ability on MY part, and EVERYTHING to do with how similar the basic scripts are when it comes to cheating spouses.
Maybe part of the problem is that sometimes the posting from those of us in piecing is a stage too far forward for the infidelity forum at times?
As long we are doing our balancing act, I think it is both possible that those in piecing or reconciled may want to move things forward at too fast a clip, it is also possible that those still in infidelity are not willing to believe the end of the affair.
It's definitely "easier" in a way (and I hate to use that word . . . "simpler" perhaps?) when everything is "The Guys i the White Hats vs. Those Bad Guys in the Black Hats". There is a virtuous, Betrayed-Spouse-Fighting-the-Bad-Guys stage that -- while emotionally and physically draining -- DOES keep you on-task, I think especially for a man. The "hard skills" of fighting, negotiating, drawing (and enforcing) boundaries, legal and financial moves, planning, executing, etc., are all needed and we tend to be strong at those.
Then the "softer skills" are needed after the affair has ended -- compassion, forgiveness, understanding, forgiveness, listening, empathy, did I say forgiveness? , meeting emotional needs, etc.
Two VERY different skillsets.
Anyway, that's why I'm such a big fan of getting good intel -- it takes the GUESSWORK out of it, and let you know -- accurately -- what stage you are at, and what you should be focusing on.
You know, it's funny, but every time I get into one of our frequent "Snooping is bad!" debates around here (I am very pro-intel, as you all know), one of the arguments that the anti-snooping crowd always give is, basically, "It'll make you nuts!"
I contend just the opposite. Us humans are wired to fear -- to "go nuts" -- over the UNKNOWN, not the KNOWN.
Ronald Reagan said, of the Soviets, "Trust -- but verify." it is in that verification that we can either find STRENGTH AND PEACE OF MIND (if nothing is going on), or KNOWLEDGE AND DISCERNMENT about the right course of action (if something is).
For the life of me, I can't see anything wrong with that.
But I have seen it work. Butterflymom was the best example. Alisuddenly, too. Sometimes patience and determination does pay off.
I'm not familiar with their sitches -- I'll have to read them. I personally have never followed someone where it worked. Hope4Us was probably THE most patient guy I ever saw on here -- him and Mules -- but both of them actually did some very hard-core confronting, exposing (even to their kids) and legal hardball along the way.
I'm not saying it can't be done. I'm saying I've personally never seen it, whereas I HAVE seen the opposite approach work, quite well.
I even did a thread once, something called "Any Regrets?" or some such. Nearly to a man/woman, the #1 regret was "I didn't get tougher, sooner."
As my brother Tom once told me, two things that people never say on their death beds:
1. "I wish I had spent MORE time at the office"; and
Glass argues the same thing June.. I don't have the pp # handy, but Glass discusses PTS as well.
I can quote roughly here offhand that she compares the experience of infidelity fallout to be very similar to the behaviour of people who have been victims of a violent crime - assult, rape, etc
In short, they feel violated, vulnerable 24 x 7, and have nightmares that repeat the event or variations of it.. reliving it on a nightly basis
If my memory serves me, Allen, I think it was Steven W. Harley that, in his speeches on infidelity, compares it to gang rape, saying that it's actually WORSE. The argument he makes is that at least in the case of most rapes, the attacker is a stranger, whereas in infidelity, the person hurting you is the one who swore to LOVE you, and to forsake all others for.
I believe he actually had a woman come up to him after one of his speeches, and tearfully share with him that she HAD been gang-raped, and she had also been the victim of her husband's cheating, and she agreed with him -- this was worse.
