Given the situation where the wife and the husband have grown apart over time and the wife has had an affair, but for whatever reason, she returns to the marriage. Harley's advice is:
Quote:
You must take this opportunity to prove to her that you can do something you haven't been doing for some time: Meet her most important emotional needs. First, you need to discover them. What was her friend doing that she found so irresistible? He probably talked to her, showed an interest in her, was respectful and encouraging, demonstrated his care by being there for her when she needed him. And maybe, most important, he didn't criticize her or try to straighten her out.
Call her, send her flowers, tell her how much you love her, how much you miss her. Don't smother her, but let her know in no uncertain terms that you value your relationship with her.
From What to Do with an Unfaithful Wife Letter #2 by Steven W. Harley
Nowhere in this advice does he say to assume she is lying when she says the affair is over. He says to be nice, try to meet her needs. Because the person she enjoys being with is the person she will want to be with.
Oh my where to start. Well first off, I won't paraphrase Allen A. I will actually quote him to make sure I get my reference correct.
Quote:
Yes, it is an infidelity subforum. It will have a "current" and that "current" will focus on breaking up an affair.
Your language is quite aggressive Surely we are looking at ending the A. I mention the tone of your language as it is a contast through your posts. Actually, as an aside, I personally did 'break up' my H's A, but that way is not the way for all; it just worked for me.
Quote:
The affair must be addressed directly.
That is an opinion - granted it may be one held by many of the experts you mention - but it does not work for all. I have seen instances on these boards where ignoring 'the elephant in the room', on a long term basis has actually worked. See Alisuddenly for an example.
Quote:
Many of the posters here have been kind enough to offer explicit references to Harley, Tuppy, Glass, Lusterman, and many more. These are not blanket opinions based on only their own experience, that would statistically speaking be only a single sample reference and of little value. We refer to those who research infidelity full time doing actual case studies. These experts deal with hundreds of infidelity cases and then document their findings and publish books on the subject. The opinions posted here are of the people posting AND of people who have dealt with hundreds of these cases as a full time job. LOTS of EXPERIENCE there to support an opinion.
I agree. But many of these experts also agree that different circumstances call for different tactics. I have read books/ articles by most of those authors you refer to. There is so much more involved than you break down their opinions/ advice to be.....otherwise their books would be very short.
Quote:
But more to the point, what you are implying here is that your experience is worth more than theirs because you have already reached reconcilliation. I have several problems with this :
a. First, its insulting. I would respectfully ask you to apologize to the members of this forum for suggesting that your experience is worth more than their educated experience and that of the authors they have read. This is just downright silly, but more to the point, its offensive.
b. The people on this forum come here often when their lives are at their worst. Instead of falling and wallowing, they do research and find the strength, courage, and commitment to their marriages to post here. The idea that you show up and insult them because you have reached reconciliation and they haven't yet is offensive. The opinions of educated posters who have yet to reconcile is at the least equal to that of yours. I have yet to read a single infidelity reference on your part from any published expert on the subject. Surely you advocate reading before you speak up as having as much value as a hollow opinion tossed out at whim yes?
Now this section of your post was offensive. How many of Lotus' posts have you read? She was on here under another log in and maybe, not having known her under her other name has not given you enough history on her. But I know her and I know she is well read.
I also know that she does not consider herself, (and nor do I), better in any way because we have 'busted' our Ms. She is one of the posters that comes back to try and help others, rather than just fading away after things have righted themselves in her life.
Quote:
Actually, if you bothered to read their posts you are privy to it, people publish their stories here regularly. But from my assessment of your posts, you don't read posts very carefully, at best you skim them and improvise a clumsy paraphrase. This act misinforms readers and insults the original posters who are now misrepresented. Cheap tactics like this belong in politics, not on a forum helping people combat infidelity.
We are only privy on here to what any individual decides to post - no more no less. As we know, there tends to be more than one side to a 'story'
As for you cheap comments about 'skimming' and 'cheap tactics'- well just put your knife back in it's sheath - that was uncalled for and very petty.
Quote:
Good for you. Others arne't there yet. This does not make their educated viewpoints of any less value than yours. in fact I could argue that since they have been fighting their affairs LONGER that they have MORE experience than YOU. How long did the affair attack YOUR home Lotus? I am guessing it lasted less than a year. How many affairs have you had to fight Lotus? I am guessing it was only one, since you have only mentioned one. Some posters here have had to fight several. Their experience is considerably more involved than yours. Please offer them the dignity of respecting their opinion as at least equal to the value of your own uneducated and limited expeirence on the topic.
I don't believe that Lotus ever meant that because she was reconciled her viewpoints were better than anyone elses. What significance does the length of an A have apart from perhaps the way an individual decides to deal with it? If it keeps happening and there are multiple A's then surely that is a sign that something is wrong in the M and it isn't getting properly dealt with - otherwise there would not be repeat offending. A's are generally a symptom.....and most of your so called experts agree on that.
I will also mention again your arrogant and agressive tone.
Quote:
This applies to YOUR advice then too Lotus... the information you are putting up here in this very thread is worth what we paid for it - nothing. The fact that you suggest this shows how foolish the suggestion is. It's self-contradicting. Free advice DOES have value. The suggestion that becuase it is free it has no value is ludicrous.
How often have I seen the guy "Who's got your back", Puppy, refer to his advice only being worth what the poster he is posting to is paying for it....ie. nothing. Lots of times.
Quote:
But more to the point, educated experienced posters have a lot of value in their posts. They share information that they did indeed pay for when they purchased their text by Glass, Harley, Lusterman, Tuppy, etc. This information was NOT FREE.. it is just out of kindness that this information is being passed on for free. Your information is worth nothing as it isn't based on an infidelity reference, its a single sample rerernece and statistically speaking this is worthless. Your posts are hollow if they aren't backed up by significant experience on the subject.
These posters who have read these texts share their interpretation of what those authors have written; that can be a far cry from what was intended to be the advice. We can see that with just individuals interpretation of MWD's writings on this site . Two people can read exactly the same sections of her book and interprest them completely differently. I see it often when navigating from thread to thread.
Quote:
Including your own Lotus. Yours is the most dangerous, its got no apparent research to back it up... So I am advocating yours is the one to be of the leasat use here. I am sad to say you have wasted valuable time that could have been put into helping people instead of my having to dismiss hollow challenges to educated posts from veteran forum members.
You chose to reply - you didn't have to.
You know Lotus so little and yet you go in to attack mode. If you did know her you would know that she does not advocate cake eating and is not as you descibe her at all. I would accuse you here of what you accuse Lotus - skimming and cheap tactics.
MWD advocates doing what works and 180's when required. Words of affection and telling someone you love them can work and be a 180 if in the past that is something you have ommitted to do. The advice for everyone is different as most peoples' circumstances differ slightly from one to another. There is no one answer fits all.
My belief is that Lotus started this thread just to say to people that they ought to filter the advice they were given and not follow it blindly.....as they would be the ones living with the consequences. I would apply the same criteria to advice from experts - they don't get it right all the time.
I agree that you need to get the A dealt with if you want to have any chance of rekindling the M, but how you do that varies. Sometimes an aggressive stance is required and in other circumstances that would chase off the cheating spouse for good. In my instance the aggressive stance worked, (after an 18 month A), as my H thought I didn't care for him. Me being upfront and forthright showed him how much I did care. For other posters it would have been counter productive - see benotafraid's posts.
I also believe that whilst discussions as to the different methods that one can take are very useful, attacking and insulting comments Allen are not - they reduce your credibility. I am sorry you had to resort to being so crass. I can only put it down to your own experiences.
Saffie me 46 H 46 M in 1986 D20,D18,S16,D13 H's A 01/05 to 07/06 H recommitted to M 07/06 renewed vows 09/06 Going from strength to strength
Given the situation where the wife and the husband have grown apart over time and the wife has had an affair, but for whatever reason, she returns to the marriage. Harley's advice is:
Nowhere in this advice does he say to assume she is lying when she says the affair is over. He says to be nice, try to meet her needs. Because the person she enjoys being with is the person she will want to be with.
You are taking that out of context. Harley discusses withdrawal phase in depth two which you have bypassed without so much as a mention.
Something else- it would be amazing if your spouses who ended the As could share their insight/reflections. FOr example, Allen, when you finally got to the point that made your wife end her A, did she tell you that you should have done it sooner? Or was it just the right timing? And others out there (don't mean to single you out!!!)
Don't get me wrong -- my wife was LIVID all the time DURING my affair-busting attempts. Well, I take that back: she actually swung very hot-then-cold, trying different approaches to gaslight me and keep me at bay and "okay with everything." But she pretty much hated my guts, but at the same time I could tell that I was building up a long-lost RESPECT from her.
It was only after she ended her affair, and went thru her hard withdrawal from OM, that she thanked me for fighting for her, and began to understand my hardball tactics. I still think she would say there are things that she is pissed I did (like expose to MY family), as it's made it more awkward now, but just about everything else, she says she understood -- and respected.
She used a word much much later, long after the affair had ended. She said that she finally knew that she "mattered" to me, by the way I fought for her. She said "I needed to know that I mattered to you."
THAT is why this is such difficult dance. Because, if done incorrectly, what YOU think is "loving detachment" may come across as "don'tgiveashitness," which is NOT what you're going for -- it sends the message "you don't matter to me." And conversely, if you PURSUE too much, with all the "Love Dare" crap, you send the message of "I don't value myself enough to stand up for myself, so how can YOU possibly value me?" And you lose respect, and therefore love, and you make things worse.
Like "tough love" with a child, where you have to make sure you're doing BOTH the "tough" part and the "love" part, you have to do BOTH loving, and detachment.
This will be the last thing I'm going to say no this debate, because, in the end, the board allows (and benefits from) differing views, and it's really up to the posters to sift thru them, apply them to their own sitches as appropriate, discern each person's advice, motives and background, and decide accordingly.
At the risk of sounding like Larry Tate (god, I'm dating myself), BOTH SIDES ARE "RIGHT." You DO have to aggressively attack an affair, and you DO have to treat a formerly-wayward spouse with love, compassion and re-attract yourself to them and address any past marital complaints.
But, as the Good Book says, "to everything, there is a season." (or was that the Byrds???)
Dr. Harley (and others) teach aggressively attacking the affair thru exposure, putting a FIRM no-contact and transparency plan in place, and THEN addressing the healing in the marriage. It's Tuppy's "tree limb thru the roof" analogy.
Where Allen, myself (and others) disagree most strenuously is when -- at what stage -- "being nice" is applied -- WHILE an unrepentant affair is still taking place.
It doesn't work, it enables the cheating spouse's poor behavior, and it often damages the self-esteem and even the emotional health of the betrayed spouse. To use a current political term, one has to "PIVOT." Pivot from the aggressive, affair-busting, hard legal/financial stance, to a softer more conciliatory and compassionate stance once the affair has ended.
And yes, your work may even be that much harder because of the strong stance you took, but at least you will still have a marriage to work on.
Just ask anyone in "Piecing." Jack Three Beans has written extensively some really good posts about this, how the very things you need to do to be successful in the wayward phase, are the OPPOSITE of what you need to do once you're reconciled and piecing!
It's not for the feint-of-heart. But you CAN'T skip either step. BOTH are necessary.
Goodness, I never thought when this thread started that we would ever get to any kind of resolution. But I think there has been some very good growth in the thinking here.
I think we all just need to remain CIVIL, and RESPECTFUL of each other's views, without attacking each other. If you and I agreed on everything, then ONE OF US WOULDN'T NEED TO BE HERE . . . right?
The funniest thing is, Lotus, in my "real life" I'm really more of a Mr. Nice Guy than a hardass. I'm a classic people-pleaser, conflict-avoider, Nice Guy who hates confrontation. It's just that I try to provide, here, whatever I feel might be MISSING from the other advice people are getting, and -- in general (past 30 days or so on the "Infidelity" forum notwithstanding), for every 1x post about "hardball" you'll read 10x about "Bo-Peep." I look for men, especially, who are NOT happy with how their current situation is going, and who do NOT seem to have the temperament to be able to do the "standing" thing for much longer. Those that are OK with it, I may WARN them, but I pretty much leave them alone.
Saffie, If you want an end to the thread, talk to the person who opened the thread, I am, and have been, merely defending myself
Lotus opened this thread attacking the endorsement of Harley, Tuppy, Glass, and others in combatting affairs on this forum. She attacked these infidelity experts and their programs in favor of a program that the owners themselves publically acknowledge is ineffective in combatting affairs. To my mind, thanks to Puppy Dog Tails' again exhaustive research on this matter, he's offered us a slam dunk rebuttal and the dispute is closed.
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
Lotus,
I've been through the Retrouvaille program with my wife, two years ago. It's very good; my parents have facilitated both it and Marriage Encounter weekends. It is NOT, however, intended for marriages where one (or both) of the spouses are having an active affair. They tell you that, in fact, when you register (or at least they're supposed to), and they usually refuse to accept you for a weekend until the affair is ended, and the couple is committed to trying to work on the marriage, unencumbered.
From the program's own website:
Before the couple can start the program, however, it's essential that both spouses be willing to work on saving the marriage. If one partner is unwilling to face the issues or is in denial, then he or she isn't ready to commit to Retrouvaille. Additionally, if there is substance abuse or infidelity, these behaviors must stop before the program is entered.
It's a wonderful program, but it doesn't really apply to adultery situations.
Puppy
This coupled with MWD' endorsement of Glass I posted earlier, but for your convenience I will repost here :
Quote:
So illuminating, instructive, down-to-earth,and inspiring that it truly transforms lives. Since no marriage - including yours - is immune to infidelity, this book is a God-send.
I will debate no further on this subject.
If you seek an end to the thread itself, talk to the poster who opened it.
I, for one, am satisfied that these forum members are "getting good marital advice".
It's just that I try to provide, here, whatever I feel might be MISSING from the other advice people are getting, and -- in general (past 30 days or so on the "Infidelity" forum notwithstanding), for every 1x post about "hardball" you'll read 10x about "Bo-Peep." Puppy
I pretty much have the same view pup... most people read MWD while their spouse is overtly cheating on them and they page through DR and are shocked to find their Bo-Peep approaches aren't working.. shock of all shocks.
If you are willing to accept that infidelity is an addiction, you have to accept that hardball tactics are almost always necessary...
And advocating them here does provide some balance when as you pointed out here, most posters newly arriving to the Infidelity forum here don't consider or haven't been educated about infidelity and addiction.
There is no conclusive way to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that infidelity IS an addiction, for that matter anything, but if you can accept that, the rest of the advice is to my mind suitable.
As you say, there needs to be a balance here. And when you set your feet in concrete, you can't dance, (or play tennis). I generally, don't find your advice laden with hostility. But not everyone is as temperate and reasonable as you.
People in the midst of affairs, or even suspecting that their spouse is having an affair, are in an emotional state where their passions can easily be inflamed. This can lead to very bad results. It is important to keep in mind what we are dealing with and not encourage people to take actions that may be illegal or detrimental to their welfare in the long-run. We should moderate advice so that, at the very least, we do no harm. It is possible to bust the affair and at the same time destroy any hope of reconciliation. How is that a success?
That is why I feel it is necessary to remind people that this is a bulletin board, not a therapist's office. There are real Divorce Busting counselors, but you don't find them on the bulletin board, they do phone counseling at the number above.
