Thinks 180 May be Backfiring

[flowmom]

Anne, I apologize for implying that you don't have real problems. You definitely do, otherwise you would not be here. The intention of my post was to encourage you to deal with the things that you can change.

This would be a better way of putting it:
You are facing some big challenges in your life and in your M. The good news is that your main responsibility is to yourself right now, and that gives you a lot of freedom to pursue solutions.

I don't believe that you choose to be overweight or have done nothing about your health condition. I do, however, live in a very health-conscious geographic area where many people choose to work really hard on their health, seek alternative care, and invest a lot of time and energy in diet, exercise, and self care. I was writing from the assumption that there probably is more you could do around self care (even if you are doing a lot), but only you can be the judge of that.

Something that is hard for me to accept is that men need their wives to be physically attractive (according to men who I talk to and the book His Needs Her Needs). I was slightly overweight in our M while my H was a very fit hardbody. I had many legitimate reasons for it, but the bottom line is that it did not work for my H and I believe that is part of why he left me. If I felt fantastic about myself and my body and my H was not satisfied, then I would not feel that his issue had any justification. But the reality is that I did not feel good about myself, and I am not surprised that my H didn't feel great about how I looked either. It's definitely "unfair" to have a health condition affect your appearance and thus your H's perception of you, but unfortunately unconditional acceptance is pretty hard to come by .

Take care. Remember that if you are getting input that doesn't work for you, you can just ignore it. But my experience of this forum is that people really care and offer very useful input.

[talia]

HI Anne,
I still haven't gotten through your entire first post... but I feel the need to weigh in....

SLOW DOWN.... HOLY CRAP...

Noone here is attacking you. Rob gives some of the BEST advice on this board and you would do well to STOP being defensive and listen. For what it's worth (FWIW) I categorically agree with everything he said. We are ALL here to help you and give you the feedback you need to improve. The assumptions you made - pointed out by Greek - are simply YOURS. Read your post again... THATS how you TRULY feel about yourself - Time for a reality check....

Now the good news... ITS TOTALLY WITHIN YOUR POWER TO CHANGE THAT...

If you want to change things - you - your marriage - your life - you need to be willing to listen to people who want to help you!

Flowmom is right - as $H!TTY as D is - at your age and situation its the "best" it could be.... You need to face the REALITY of your situation.. soon...

I'll post more shortly... Please be ready to take the advice for what it truly is - help...

In the meantime - if you are on here - please answer me this...

Why do you want to save your marriage?

T

[talia]

Anne,
Some additional questions. I've finished your first posts, I readi it a couple times.

Have you read DR?
What other "self improvement/ marriage improvement" resources have you tried/read?
What are your goals?
What are your"more of the same" behaviors?
What are the core issues you have with you?
What are the things you have worked on/identified in IC?
What is your health status? (It seemed your weight gain was more emotional/stress related historically by your posts. How did you find out about PCOS and what is the status/treatment plan? I'm sure its contributed to your weight gain but I' curious how it all timed out)
What issues have you identified with your H?
What do you do to GAL? What are you doing for you?

And I want to know why you want to save your marriage??


Lets get some background and give everyone here a chance to help you with the details - not get defensive - we don't know you well yet - but we want too - lets make it happen!!!

Hugs

T

[BrownEyes]

Hello. I would like a chance to respond to some of the posts and then to move on from this topic and then answer some of Talia's questions.

I apologize for getting so defensive. In my eyes, I was asking a question and some of responses had nothing to do with what I was asking. In my post I was using those scenarios as examples of how I was having trouble dealing with the 180 - to ask husband for help or not say anything and it felt like the scenario was taken out of context. As an earlier post described, I have been doing my 180s but this was an area where I was confused - for some reason it turned into me having a housekeeper, etc.

Robx - No offense, but some of your posts come across as rude and condesending. I already know that my husband does not think I'm fun, that he think that I don't have any value and that I don't have any self esteem. These were not revelations to me. To answer some of your questions to clarify - we have a housekeeper that comes once every two weeks. I don't normally ask my husband to vacuum or clean the house. I had scheduled the carpet cleaning about a month and a half ago; two days before they were supposed to come, while I was working and my husband was home with the dog, the dog desteoyed a feather pillow and there were feathers EVERYWHERE. I would not have if we were not having the carpets cleaned. I unexpectedly had to go into work the day before the carpet cleaning and I NICELY said, "hey, while I'm at work it would be a huge help if you could vacuum in the bedroom and pickup the dog poop. I wont be home until really late." I would have just done all this myself as had been suggested had I not been called into work. When I did get home from work and saw this hadn't been done I did just go ahead and did it myself and didn't say anything to my husband. I didn't go into all this detail in the post because it was irrelevant (at least I thought) to my question. I have just been having difficulty determining if I should still ask for help and I got my answer.

Greek - I understand that some of the things I said weren't exacly written about me but when someone says "you should be concentrating on your weight loss, GAL, etc" that would imply that I'm not already doing those things. I was defensive because instead of asking me what I'm doing it sounded like it was assumed that I hadn't started to do anything about it.

Flowmom - As far as the weight issue. It is difficult in general but also difficult because unlike your husband my husband is just as overweight as I am. He doesn't work out any more frequently than me (probably less frequently) and doesn't eat any better than me. It would be more understandable (to me at least) if he had a healthy lifestyle but he doesn't.

[BrownEyes]

Hi Talia,

Thanks so much for your post. I also appreciate you trying to ask questions and get more insight!

Have you read DR? Yes, I have read it twice. I have also read her other book - The Divorce Remedy.
What other "self improvement/ marriage improvement" resources have you tried/read? I have read the Five Love Languages and countless other books that I don't even remember the names of to try and get a hold on my marriage. I have been to marriage counseling twice and I'm also in individual therapy, as is my husband.
What are your goals? This is a really broad question... my goals for myself are to gain self esteem, gain better self image, be a less angry person, be a less resentful person, be a happier person.
What are your"more of the same" behaviors? I can be controlling, I can be angry, I can be needy, I can yell and scream.
What are the core issues you have with you? Really, pretty much same as "more of same"
What are the things you have worked on/identified in IC? Oh geez, do you have a few days? Haha. I grew up in a household where I never felt unconditional love, my mother is extremely critical (i.e. why aren't you wearing makeup, have you lost weight?, why didn't you blow dry your hair) - usually the first thing out of her mouth is something negative. Growing up I believed that my self was really defined by how I look, how I acted, people's perceptions of me. I had boderline anorexia/bulimia for many years and have now been diagnosed with compulsive overeating (so now I'm overweight, just another eating disorder). Many of "issues" my husband has with me touch on these subjects such as me believing growing up that someone who is overweight has less value then someone who is normal weight - my husband just validates these things with his behaviors. Low self esteem, thinking people don't like me, thinking I'm not good enough, wondering why people want to be friend's with me, distancing myself from others.
What is your health status? (It seemed your weight gain was more emotional/stress related historically by your posts. How did you find out about PCOS and what is the status/treatment plan? I'm sure its contributed to your weight gain but I' curious how it all timed out) My health itself is actually very good in terms of cholesterol, blood sugar, blood pressue, it is all in the low/normal range even though I am overweight. As I have mentioned I try to eat well and exercise. My weight gain was a dual product of emotional/overeating and PCOS. When the weight gain started it was emotional however during this time I also developed PCOS which lead to faster/increased weight gain and then very difficult time, almost inability to lose the weight. I have waited 6 months to see a recommended endocronologist (sp?) and I am hoping she will be able to lead me to a diet that will help the weight loss. This has been very difficult to deal with - many people don't understand and think I'm not trying hard enough. It is very hurtful that my husband is unable to be support and finds me so disgusting - I feel very helpless becuase I want to so badly to lose the weight and it's almost as if I feel a race against the clock. Like, can I lose the weight fast enough for him or is he going to give up and leave?
What issues have you identified with your H? Many of the same above. My husband feels I can be controlling... I am very organized, almost OCD. However, many of the newer controlling behaviors started only after his affair. I used to never really wonder where he went, who he went with, I didn't care if he looked at porn, if he flirted at the bar, if he went to a strip club with his friends because I honestly trusted him. Once he had the affair, I started monitoring him on the computer, I have passwords to his email account etc - people may criticize this but this is how I was able to finally learn about his prostitute stuff becaues I found an email. My husband is not attracted to me, it isn't there, etc (his words). He will not have sex with me unless he is drunk or sometimes every once in a while if I initiate he will but until recently he couldn't even get an erection (which he made sure to tell me was basically all me as he didn't have these problems during the affair - gee, thanks!) He said he does not have excitement with me - this all happened after the affair - he told me she made him feel "alive", etc. His therapist has already identified that he believes that my husband seeks out adranline/exciting things - examples: his is an entertainer, he uses alcohol and drugs, he had an affair, he contacts prostitutes, etc. I really feel like my husband belived he was in love with her (and maybe he was but I just find it so unlikely given that he only knew her 2.5 months and she was engaged to someone else). He has told me he never felt with me the way he felt with her. Since the affair I feel like he has almost convinced himself that he has never really been happy with me and every fight we have its like more confirmation that I'm not the person for him. I think he feels like we are more best friends/roommates then anything else. Which is why I think my weight is such a big deal as we have an almost non-existent sex life. It is clear that he is very conflicted - he has said so but I can also feel it when I'm with him. He has said that he loves me but he is not in love with me (same as many people on here), that he will always love me but it's just not there, he doesn't see himself with me when we are old, he can't picture us together in the future, he is not happy with me, he is not happy in general (which I think he believes has everything to do with me) and that he thinks about all of this all the time. For example, last night when we were going to sleep we said goodnight and he started crying. I dont think he wanted me to hear but I could tell he was crying - its almost like this is torturing him which actually makes me feel really sad because I dont want him to feel that way. More of the "issues" are things that he has problems with me then I do with him. I do have some of the issues that you saw in earlier posts which his ablity to help aroudn the house, etc but I still love him, I still am attracted to him, I still want to have sex with him, I still see a future with him. His job has been an issue for me - it has been a very hard adjustment - he went from working a 9-5 (being able to go to bed together, eat dinner together and go out on weekends). Two years ago he started the job he has not which is as a musician and he works nights, in a bar, and is not home on the weekends. I guess I just want to make it clear that the 180 and the DB has been confusing for me because he has been very hot and cold. Reading some of the other people's stories some of them seem more black and white. Mine is more confusing because my husband still lives at home and is still affectionate towards me - he still tells me he loves me, he still hugs me and will give me kisses, he will say he wants to spend time with me. But then other days it is the complete opposite of all of this and its avoidance which I think has to do a lot with his interal battle about our marriage. So, some of the 180 things are hard to follow - such as asking him to vacuum (JUST AN EXAMPLE!) because he still asks me to help hiim with things sometimes too.
What do you do to GAL? What are you doing for you? As I mentioned, my husband has an almost opposite scheduyeles due to his job so, Wednesday thru Saturday we really don't see each other so I have this time to myself to do whatever I want. I have a book club, a movie club, I have started pottery classes, I go out with friends a few times a month. I am more of a home body though - I'm more introverted and dont like to go out every weekend - this partially is me and then partially the fact that all of our friends are married and usually do things as a couple and my husband is working. I obviously get together with girlfriends when I can but not every weekend. I also enjoy working on my website and my photography business. I am also going to start volunteering over the next couple of months. I am not afraid to do things on my own (go the movies, out to dinner, etc).

And I want to know why you want to save your marriage?? Although, through some of these posts I haven't painted a very flattering picture of my husband - before we were married (I dont necessarily think these issues have anything to do with our marriage it just happened to be that a lot of the weight, stress, job changed happened right after we got married) he was a very loving, dotting, emotionally available man. We never had trust issues. We rarely fought. We compliment each other very well - he is more laid back, I am more structured. We liked to call ourselves a mullet (I'm the business, he's the party). He is truly my best friend. He makes me laugh! His good with children. I want to be married to him for the rest of my life. Part of it also probably has to do with the fact that we have been together since we were 18 and this is the only relationship I've ever had as an adult, not only that but I've never been single as an adult. Certainly, these aren't necessarily reasons I want to stay married but reason why I'm so scared!

I really hope that people will continue to give constructive advice. I am in a lot of pain right now and already know that my husband doesn't like me so I dont need to be reminded.

Thank you everyone for all of your help!

[robx]

I apologize for getting so defensive. In my eyes, I was asking a question and some of responses had nothing to do with what I was asking.

Robx - No offense, but some of your posts come across as rude and condesending. I already know that my husband does not think I'm fun, that he think that I don't have any value and that I don't have any self esteem. These were not revelations to me. To answer some of your questions to clarify - we have a housekeeper that comes once every two weeks. I don't normally ask my husband to vacuum or clean the house. I had scheduled the carpet cleaning about a month and a half ago; two days before they were supposed to come, while I was working and my husband was home with the dog, the dog desteoyed a feather pillow and there were feathers EVERYWHERE. I would not have if we were not having the carpets cleaned. I unexpectedly had to go into work the day before the carpet cleaning and I NICELY said, "hey, while I'm at work it would be a huge help if you could vacuum in the bedroom and pickup the dog poop. I wont be home until really late." I would have just done all this myself as had been suggested had I not been called into work. When I did get home from work and saw this hadn't been done I did just go ahead and did it myself and didn't say anything to my husband. I didn't go into all this detail in the post because it was irrelevant (at least I thought) to my question. I have just been having difficulty determining if I should still ask for help and I got my answer.

No offense taken, I wasn't being rude & condescending as you put it, I was being honest and direct, maybe you prefer it when people hold back, maybe you're used to that, I'm just here to say that when people do this, it doesn't work. The shortest distance between 2 points is a straight line.

When I read your posts, I read excuses about everything and I get the feeling that you make alot of excuses regularly. I've said it before in a few other threads, excuses don't explain and explanations don't excuse. Stop making excuses or trying to explain everything, you're trying to get us to see things from your point of view, but the thing is we already have your point of view.

In your eyes you were asking a question and the responses had nothing to do your with what you were asking but that should tell you something. Maybe you were asking a question to get some sympathy instead of asking the right questions.

I'll get back to one of your questions, you want more time in the day. Work less at your 2 jobs, spend more time at home. Get the housekeeper to come in more frequently, dog poop accumulating under a bed is a sign that you need to clean the house more frequently plain & simple and if you guys can't clean your own house, pay someone to do it for you, that's ok, housekeeping is a job that people get paid to do by others, you might as well get them to come in more often and keep that house spotless so there is no excuse. A messy disorganized home is just a symptom of a messy disorganized life. Even if you get the housekeeper to come in more often, I would still work less, you just sound like you're running yourself crazy busy for no real net gain, just to stay out of the house if anything.

[Greek]

Although, through some of these posts I haven't painted a very flattering picture of my husband - before we were married (I dont necessarily think these issues have anything to do with our marriage it just happened to be that a lot of the weight, stress, job changed happened right after we got married) he was a very loving, dotting, emotionally available man. We never had trust issues. We rarely fought. We compliment each other very well - he is more laid back, I am more structured. We liked to call ourselves a mullet (I'm the business, he's the party). He is truly my best friend. He makes me laugh! His good with children. I want to be married to him for the rest of my life. Part of it also probably has to do with the fact that we have been together since we were 18 and this is the only relationship I've ever had as an adult, not only that but I've never been single as an adult. Certainly, these aren't necessarily reasons I want to stay married but reason why I'm so scared!

Anne ~
I'm glad you came back. I thought you were going to ditch us.

It seems to me, based on what you have written, that your H no longer wants the business end of things in a R. He wants a party. And Anne - really - wouldn't you LOVE to be a party for a change??? You know, when I read your earlier posts, I thought so many times that the way you interact with him is very similar to how I've interacted with our teenage sons. You are so much like a mother to him. Makes sense about the sex life when you look at it that way.

Now let me see if I can guess what you're going to say next..."But if I don't take care of these things, HE WON'T. Someone HAS to do it." I have been there and it sucks, Anne. This will be you for the rest of your life, sister, if you don't drop the rope. And he will get away with doing nothing as long as you keep doing everything.

So what is the "everything" that you do? What part of that does he need to take responsibility for and partnership in? One of my things was the bill paying. I opened the bills, organized them, wrote the checks for them, managed the money (both his and mine) and yeah, worried ALONE about things b/c he was not involved in any part of it except licking the stamp at his office to send it. This stressed me, didn't seem fair that I had to do all that plus worry, and he got to lick the stamps. When I moved home and we started building our new M, one of the hardest things I HAD to do was drop the bills in his lap and tell him this was too much for me to do alone. I made him responsible for finding a way for us to share this responsibility...and he did. It took some adjustments on both of our parts but the BIGGEST obstacle was for me to LET GO. And once I did, I got what I needed.

That is just one example of how I've learned to not be his mother, but be a partner. You don't have to be the business end of the mullet, Anne - you can be a party, too. Life will be sweeter.

I get that you are scared. Be brave in the face of all you fear. Life is not a dress rehearsal.

Greek

[BrownEyes]

Hello!

Robx - Thanks for reply. This is exactly why I'm confused about 180 and I'm getting mixed feedback. I do work at home by the way - both of my jobs are work from home jobs. Before I started DB - if there was poop under the bed I would have yelled at husband, told him to pick it up and if he didn't pick it up I would have nagged him to do it until he did. Since I started 180, concerning the poop, if he is watching the dog and the dog poops under the bed I just haven't said anything - no nagging, yelling or asking to pickup. This is why is is sitting under there. Should I not be doing that? That is confusing for me. The cleaning ladies won't pick it up - they came the other week and saw it under the bed and just told him it was there.

With the above I'm not making an excuse I'm just trying to understand the 180 better - I thought by not talking to him about it, asking him about it or doing it myself that I was doing my 180. Is that not the case?

Greek - I will continue with what I am doing then. I have not been asking husband to do anything and have not been doing tasks that I would normally do for him. That has been part of my 180. I think some of this got mixed up with one of my questions. For instance, we are on vacation now and normally I would pack both our stuff and then unpack it when we got here but I did not pack his stuff and did not unpack anything of his when we got here. It has been driving me crazy because his suitcase is sitting in the middle of the floor with stuff everywhere but I'm not saying anything and will just leave it there - seriously, what is so bad about it being there anyway? That's part of my problem is I get stressed out about things that don't really matter - I know this about myself but it's very difficult to explain to other people. It's an anxiety with things not being in their place - I undertand this is MY problem but it doesn't make it any less hard! As far as paying the bills I do do that but I don't really mind. We talked about this in therapy and both agreed that I was stronger at this task. I think there are some things that is okay or me to do if I dont mind, right? Part of this is my inability to let go of control and a lot of that has to do with a specific system I set up - again, I understand that this is my fault and my problem. But I currently have it so that our billing checking account is completely automated paying and pretty much runs itself - I do monitor it and sometimes revised budgets but for the most part it is self running. One of the hardest parts has just been if he doesn't do something in a timely fashion I normally woudl say something (nagging). So for example: I normally will do laundry or dishes if he doesn't do them but I haven't been doing that. I have been putting my stuf in the dishwasher when I'm done eating but then it is hard when his stuff just sits there for a week - I so badly want to yell at him and just tell him to stop being messy but I haven't been saying anything at all. I am trying really hard not to be his "mom". As far as the mullet comment - that does have some to do with our dynamic as far as doing things but it has a lot to do with our personalities - his is very laid back, outgoing and always wanting to go out and I'm more organized, introvertted and a homebody. From the above does it sound like I'm doing this correctly? I thought I was but now I'm not so sure.

[Greek]

That's part of my problem is I get stressed out about things that don't really matter - I know this about myself but it's very difficult to explain to other people.

No, I get it. Not difficult to understand for me b/c I've been there. Why do you need to control?

I think there are some things that is okay or me to do if I dont mind, right?

As long as you TRULY don't mind - and are NOT KEEPING SCORE.

Part of this is my inability to let go of control and a lot of that has to do with a specific system I set up - again, I understand that this is my fault and my problem.

Control for me was/is about Trust. Do I trust the people around me to help take care of what matters? There are many things that my H will now help with that have absolutely no importance to him EXCEPT that he knows it is important to me. And that came about b/c I let go and communicated.

From the above does it sound like I'm doing this correctly? I thought I was but now I'm not so sure.

I can't say just by reading you if you are correct or not. You tell me - are making these changes for you? Are you doing them with peace in your heart or are you running a tab on him? Are you not SAYING things but communicating them in other ways?

Greek

[robx]

Hello!

Robx - Thanks for reply. This is exactly why I'm confused about 180 and I'm getting mixed feedback. I do work at home by the way - both of my jobs are work from home jobs. Before I started DB - if there was poop under the bed I would have yelled at husband, told him to pick it up and if he didn't pick it up I would have nagged him to do it until he did. Since I started 180, concerning the poop, if he is watching the dog and the dog poops under the bed I just haven't said anything - no nagging, yelling or asking to pickup. This is why is is sitting under there. Should I not be doing that? That is confusing for me. The cleaning ladies won't pick it up - they came the other week and saw it under the bed and just told him it was there.

With the above I'm not making an excuse I'm just trying to understand the 180 better - I thought by not talking to him about it, asking him about it or doing it myself that I was doing my 180. Is that not the case?

Greek - I will continue with what I am doing then. I have not been asking husband to do anything and have not been doing tasks that I would normally do for him. That has been part of my 180. I think some of this got mixed up with one of my questions. For instance, we are on vacation now and normally I would pack both our stuff and then unpack it when we got here but I did not pack his stuff and did not unpack anything of his when we got here. It has been driving me crazy because his suitcase is sitting in the middle of the floor with stuff everywhere but I'm not saying anything and will just leave it there - seriously, what is so bad about it being there anyway? That's part of my problem is I get stressed out about things that don't really matter - I know this about myself but it's very difficult to explain to other people. It's an anxiety with things not being in their place - I undertand this is MY problem but it doesn't make it any less hard! As far as paying the bills I do do that but I don't really mind. We talked about this in therapy and both agreed that I was stronger at this task. I think there are some things that is okay or me to do if I dont mind, right? Part of this is my inability to let go of control and a lot of that has to do with a specific system I set up - again, I understand that this is my fault and my problem. But I currently have it so that our billing checking account is completely automated paying and pretty much runs itself - I do monitor it and sometimes revised budgets but for the most part it is self running. One of the hardest parts has just been if he doesn't do something in a timely fashion I normally woudl say something (nagging). So for example: I normally will do laundry or dishes if he doesn't do them but I haven't been doing that. I have been putting my stuf in the dishwasher when I'm done eating but then it is hard when his stuff just sits there for a week - I so badly want to yell at him and just tell him to stop being messy but I haven't been saying anything at all. I am trying really hard not to be his "mom". As far as the mullet comment - that does have some to do with our dynamic as far as doing things but it has a lot to do with our personalities - his is very laid back, outgoing and always wanting to go out and I'm more organized, introvertted and a homebody. From the above does it sound like I'm doing this correctly? I thought I was but now I'm not so sure.

Quick fix for the cleaning ladies that don't or won't pick up or vacuum poop, fire them and hire cleaning ladies and let them know before they start what their job requirements are, if they can't handle the poop cleaning tasks, don't hire them. If you're being too nice to the cleaning staff, you can stop that, it's not a requirement for you to be nice, the only requirement from you is to pay them for the work they do. Give the exist staff you have a chance, tell them this is a requirement, tell them if they can't do it, then you will no longer require their services. Plain & simple.

Remember, shortest distance between 2 points is a straight line.

That's part of the problem.

The other part is poop under the bed.
You tolerate this much like you've tolerated alot of other "crap" in your life and when you tolerate crap, you will get crap, no pun intended.

The dog needs to be house trained.
Speak to the husband, tell him that the dog needs to be house trained and ask him if he's willing to look up a service that can handle this task of training that dog. If he's not up to the task, you have a few choices: you can either get rid of the dog (up to you) or find a trainer and get that dog trained. Stop waiting around for your husband, if he won't do it, you do it.

This is going to get you ready for another task down the road... if your husband won't shape up and act like a husband if you're willing to concede and make some changes that he asks for (if he asks for anything) then you're going to have to take the required action and get rid of him. Can you see yourself living with him forever like this? I can't.