I categorically agree with Rob and CG - there IS a Male/Female dynamic and its vital we get that.
I know its not feminist to say we are not equal - but we are NOT in that sense.
CG - YOU and I have the same H - mine was/is spineless. Passive/aggressive - non-confrontational - could not make a decision to save his life. He was selfish and inconsiderate too. Over our marriage I lost all respect for him and THAT is a huge reason why he left. Its a two way street - he didn't respect me or treat me the way a wife should be treated - EVER! He liked to treat me the same as his buddies - bad idea!!
I am a VERY strong, Leadership oriented woman. Its a central part of my job. What I forgot is that didn't mean I HAD to be that way at home. I took over the house and he let me. I see how that ruined our marriage. All he had to do was say something - I would have changed it all - I pushed it too far. Sort of like a little kid testing to see what they can get away with. I look back now slightly ashamed of my behavior. Rather than stand up to me - the spineless jerk left and found a weaker woman to have an A with. He did the same thing with his affair - how far can I take this before she will say something... I PUT UP with it because classic advice for women is to "win" him back. Women need to advocate their worth too - just differently. It took me WAY too long to find resources to help me see that.
As to how women should act - I agree Rob - LIKE WOMEN. Not that we need to be submissive but men need to be treated like MEN. Its our job to treat them that way. If you really want functional examples check out the series "Light His Fire" - its amazing at showing women how to handle the male dynamic in a way that is EMPOWERING for us. Guys... There is a "Light Her Fire" series to teach you how to treat your women right..... (hint hint)
Its not our job to "parent" our spouses... when we start looking at it that way it kills the marriage...
Rob I think you said it on here - "Women want a man who will stand up for them, and usually that means Stand up to them" I totally agree - THAT'S what I needed from my H - and honestly will be the one thing I look for in my next relationship!!
Not sure if any of this helps - but I had to weight in!!
T
Last edited by talia; 03/10/1007:30 PM.
ME28,WAH30, M 5YRS, T 7YRS ,OW/ILYBNILY/SEP 9/09 Served with D papers 6/6/10 Current
I've seen this happen with so many people, that it's something I find hard to believe people don't talk about more. It sounds like at some point, you became passive - not because you didn't have "nuts" - but because you started to abandon your adult responsibilities. If you wife asked where would you like to go to dinner and you told her, where ever you want, that would be great...exactly 50% of the time. But if in most of the times she asked what you wanted to do and you said "you pick, wifey" then she's got all the decision making responsibility.
Or if you asked how should we spend our money or discipline our kids or what movie do you want to watch. A lot of times, I see one spouse letting the other spouse make all the decisions bc they "want to be nice." Being nice is just code for no decision-making. After a while, the "nice" intentions become a burden. Why can't you decide where to go for dinner.
But let me clear. If has nothing to do as a man or woman.
It does, however, make it seem more a parent-child or teacher-child relationship. You forget to pick up the groceries or do something that causes a rift and she gets p.o.'d, then she has to "punish" you, like a parent would do to a child. For example, probably for the past 3 years, our oldest daughter loves all things Disney. On more than several occasions, I would ask my stbx-H to get the latest dvd or stop at the mall to get costume-dressy stuff, or things for her. And lots of times he forgot. In fact, the only way he seemed to understand how important it was when we had an argument about it. In a sense, I had to "discipline" him.
The reason I bring it up is the common thread in all the people I know who are divorcing or trying to save their marriage was that one person had assumed the adult role and the other seemed more like a child. This is not gender-specific, as in my cousin, who's a guy, did the same thing for his wife, like giving her an allowance and trying to fix financial messes she got herself into. She cheated on him. It makes perfect sense that you can't have that difference in power, esp. since a marriage is about two, adult people helping each other. If they aren't it's like wanting to date your teacher. Not hot for teacher hot...just NOT hot at all (think of the teacher looking like Ben Stein from Ferris Bueller's day off...your wife probably thinks you look more like him than the romantic partner she wanted).
Does this make sense to you. Again, there's a lot of good advice here - particularly the part of doing things to make yourself happy and satisfied, whether or not your wife approves of it or not.
I think we would agree until this:
Quote:
It does, however, make it seem more a parent-child or teacher-child relationship. You forget to pick up the groceries or do something that causes a rift and she gets p.o.'d, then she has to "punish" you, like a parent would do to a child. For example, probably for the past 3 years, our oldest daughter loves all things Disney. latest dvd or stopOn more than several occasions, I would ask my stbx-H to get the at the mall to get costume-dressy stuff, or things for her. And lots of times he forgot. In fact, the only way he seemed to understand how important it was when we had an argument about it. In a sense, I had to "discipline" him.
Do you see how standing up and being a man he would tell you. "Wife, I love our daughter but I am not going to go by the mall every time you tell me to pick something up for her. If you want her to have something frilly then you are better suited to pick that out. I will pick something up for her that I want to get her that I know she will appreciate when I want to."
As a man I am pretty sure he didn't forget. He didn't want to pick those things up but lacked the tools to talk to you in a healthy way. You then feeling the need to "discipline" him (due to frustration on your part) further entrenched the dysfunctional dynamic. The key is having the awareness to recognize these behaviors then addressing them productively.
Quote:
"Women want a man who will stand up for them, and usually that means Stand up to them" I totally agree - THAT'S what I needed from my H - and honestly will be the one thing I look for in my next relationship!!
M22,H45,W45 S21/18D12 Retain faith that you will prevail in the end, regardless of the difficulties and at the same time confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be.
I actually have a student this semester named Zoot.
Steve, What do you teach?
M22,H45,W45 S21/18D12 Retain faith that you will prevail in the end, regardless of the difficulties and at the same time confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be.
Sorry to hijack but I would love the opinion of people like Coach, Greek, robx, Steve and anyone else on my sitch with my WAW.
Thanks,
Ken
Me48 WAW46 M24 yrs S24 D21 D19 EA disc 6/09 2nd EA Fall 09 I move out 11/12/09 W and I switch 1/14/10 D Filed 3/17/10 W moves in with OM 6/8/10 D Final 6/21/10
In my H's cases he was a bit spineless but he was also plain old lazy. His dad is the same way. If somebody else will do it they will let them but have no problem complaining about the end result.
I always think back to when my grandfather died. It was really sudden, it was late at night when we found out, we were in the midst of a terrible snow storm and could not get a flight to save our lives. We finally found a flight only to get the airport the next day and find it cancelled. Of course, my sister and I were a weeping mess and in a total daze. It was the ONE and ONLY time I saw my H really take charge. He must have "argued" with the clerk at the ticket counter for 45 minutes. Not only did he get us on another flight, he convinced our connection to hold the plane for us for nearly an hour so we would make it. He wasn't rude to the ticket agent, he basically just said this is what needs to happen and I won't leave until it does.
I think of that day often and wonder why it took an absolute crises for him to take some sort of charge of things.
I never wanted my H to "take care of me" but I wanted to have a general feeling of him "having my back" no matter what. He always knew I had his but I never felt like he had mine when the chips were down. The way he behaved when my father died has burned a hole in my heart I doubt will ever go away.
It's not a man or women thing. In some ways I think it is a people thing. Look around. I am amazed at how sloppy people have become. I might not be Miss America but I certainly never schlepped around in sweats and a t-shirt when I was married just because I *was* married. My H didn't either.
I really don't know what the right answer is and I do think some power struggles between men and women are inevitable. Things such as income, child rearing and other "life issues" do force us to cross traditional barriers. I guess the key is finding a partner that is willing to learn to cross traditional barriers in a way that mutually benefits the R/family AND allows each gender to keep what is beautiful about them in tact and present.
Wow... I really thank you all for your input.. Truly.. It took me awhile to read all of it, but really great things.. I hope others that are struggling as I am have a chance to view this thread. Its amazing how I feel that I too was a p*ssy.. I did everything I could and let her walk all over me. I was the "nice" guy. I Usually always said, "what ever you want is fine by me." I know that I dont need to be an a$$ about it now, but really turn it around and become the "man" I used to be. The one that attracted her to me in the first place. I need to regain that respect back from her.. Its tough to do of course. We dont do much together right now, so I'm trying to figure out some things that I can do to win the respect back.
M 43 W 43 S15 S 12 D 10 ILYBNILWY ( Dec 2009) Sleeping separate rooms April 8 2010. Sep as of 07/14/2010 W moving out 07/31/2010 No OM confirmed ( yet)
In my H's cases he was a bit spineless but he was also plain old lazy. His dad is the same way. If somebody else will do it they will let them but have no problem complaining about the end result.
I always think back to when my grandfather died. It was really sudden, it was late at night when we found out, we were in the midst of a terrible snow storm and could not get a flight to save our lives. We finally found a flight only to get the airport the next day and find it cancelled. Of course, my sister and I were a weeping mess and in a total daze. It was the ONE and ONLY time I saw my H really take charge. He must have "argued" with the clerk at the ticket counter for 45 minutes. Not only did he get us on another flight, he convinced our connection to hold the plane for us for nearly an hour so we would make it. He wasn't rude to the ticket agent, he basically just said this is what needs to happen and I won't leave until it does.
I think of that day often and wonder why it took an absolute crises for him to take some sort of charge of things.
I never wanted my H to "take care of me" but I wanted to have a general feeling of him "having my back" no matter what. He always knew I had his but I never felt like he had mine when the chips were down. The way he behaved when my father died has burned a hole in my heart I doubt will ever go away.
It's not a man or women thing. In some ways I think it is a people thing. Look around. I am amazed at how sloppy people have become. I might not be Miss America but I certainly never schlepped around in sweats and a t-shirt when I was married just because I *was* married. My H didn't either.
I really don't know what the right answer is and I do think some power struggles between men and women are inevitable. Things such as income, child rearing and other "life issues" do force us to cross traditional barriers. I guess the key is finding a partner that is willing to learn to cross traditional barriers in a way that mutually benefits the R/family AND allows each gender to keep what is beautiful about them in tact and present.
In my H's cases he was a bit spineless but he was also plain old lazy. His dad is the same way. If somebody else will do it they will let them but have no problem complaining about the end result.
I always think back to when my grandfather died. It was really sudden, it was late at night when we found out, we were in the midst of a terrible snow storm and could not get a flight to save our lives. We finally found a flight only to get the airport the next day and find it cancelled. Of course, my sister and I were a weeping mess and in a total daze. It was the ONE and ONLY time I saw my H really take charge. He must have "argued" with the clerk at the ticket counter for 45 minutes. Not only did he get us on another flight, he convinced our connection to hold the plane for us for nearly an hour so we would make it. He wasn't rude to the ticket agent, he basically just said this is what needs to happen and I won't leave until it does.
I think of that day often and wonder why it took an absolute crises for him to take some sort of charge of things.
I never wanted my H to "take care of me" but I wanted to have a general feeling of him "having my back" no matter what. He always knew I had his but I never felt like he had mine when the chips were down. The way he behaved when my father died has burned a hole in my heart I doubt will ever go away.
It's not a man or women thing. In some ways I think it is a people thing. Look around. I am amazed at how sloppy people have become. I might not be Miss America but I certainly never schlepped around in sweats and a t-shirt when I was married just because I *was* married. My H didn't either.
I really don't know what the right answer is and I do think some power struggles between men and women are inevitable. Things such as income, child rearing and other "life issues" do force us to cross traditional barriers. I guess the key is finding a partner that is willing to learn to cross traditional barriers in a way that mutually benefits the R/family AND allows each gender to keep what is beautiful about them in tact and present.
Wow... I really thank you all for your input.. Truly.. It took me awhile to read all of it, but really great things.. I hope others that are struggling as I am have a chance to view this thread. Its amazing how I feel that I too was a p*ssy.. I did everything I could and let her walk all over me. I was the "nice" guy. I Usually always said, "what ever you want is fine by me." I know that I dont need to be an a$$ about it now, but really turn it around and become the "man" I used to be. The one that attracted her to me in the first place. I need to regain that respect back from her.. Its tough to do of course. We dont do much together right now, so I'm trying to figure out some things that I can do to win the respect back.
Start by winning your own self-respect back, don't look at it from the point of view how do I win my respect back from her, that won't work, you'll be chasing your tail trying to figure out how to make her respect you again.
Start by respecting you, setting boundaries, standing up for yourself when necessary - what she does is irrelevant as long as you have your self-esteem and self-respect back, it won't matter how she feels about you, you won't be seeking her approval anymore and that's when she'll begin to respect you.
