flowmom | need to commit to myself

[flowmom]

Freckle and Kalni, you are women who know of what you speak. Your input means a lot to me

Please let your head guide you at this point and not your emotions.

I think I've been doing that...but it's "counterintuitive" as they say.

I want to ask you something : what would you say if I told you "flo, if there is a chance for you and your H, your time slot (as we say in aviation) is not gonna come before 6-8 months pass by?" Would you still want this chance if you had to wait it out for such a long time? And then it would only be a chance, not certainty.

Absolutely. I am not patient, but I've waited for H to sort himself out before (for 2 years!) under very different circumstances. In this case there is so much more at stake and it's worth it to me. I know it's a chance and only a slim one.

I may sound out of context but I want to point out to you that you are pushing yourself too hard too soon hoping you will get answers. It doenst work this way sweets. I've been there, done that. Spending 20 hours on these boards, consuming 100% my thought energy on my M, eager to listen to others give me hope, analyse, find answers etc etc. It's great you are working with C. Absorve what you talk about and take your time to plan your moves. Do NOT react. ACT!

Yes this was emphasized in C. Spending too much time on my M in any form = not taking care of myself. And that won't help me, my children, or my M.

I am very confident, in cases like yours/mine, couples need to detox from each other.

Yes, coparenting is making that quite tricky for H and I to avoid one another. OTOH, we exchange almost no conversation in person or by email. There is almost no interaction.

Regarding your letter, if he says no, do you really have a back up plan? Would you cancel? Because if you have been dependent on him for quite some time, you dont want to repeat history. If your H is so goal oriented, this could be your chance for a nice 180.

Well, that would put me in a tricky situation. Leaving the kids with H for 4 days would be really stressful for H and the kids (esp my little 3 yo who is very attached to me)...I doubt he would even want that. I could try to bring other childcare (expensive) or his parents (complicated), but basically that would end up being about proving to H that I was determined to go with or without his help. With someone else caring for the children, realistically I would have to scale waaaay back what my expectations would be of how I could participate in the event. Much more of my energy would be going to mothering rather than being a biologist, and that's not necessarily the image that I'm trying to project to my peers. Remember that my S6 is on the autism spectrum and my D3 is high strung and seems to be in distress. My kids would likely wig out if they were left with someone else for an entire day. And the event takes a lot out of me too...it's not like I would have tons of energy to deal with wigging out children if things weren't working.

[Butterfly1]

AGree with Kalni - I think it's "too soon". My advice would be to not invite him at all, but certainly go. Ask anyone else to help BUT him. Expensive or tricky is way better and will get you farther along the DB path - consider it an investement in yourself!~He has to feel the full effect of his actions and that means YOU doing a little walking away from him. OTherwise, it looks like you are condoning his behavior.

I know it's hard and I'm not saying I could have done it - but in no way would I invite him to ANYTHING. Not for months from now. He left, he needs to be left alone. It's also pursuey. YOu need to prove to him and yourself you are independant!~ Believe me it will go a looooong way.

The main point is YOU need to know you can cope without him. It may not be perfect, buy you will do it and BELIEVE ME on the other side YOU WILL FEEL STRONGER. You might not stay as long as you like, or have the perfect childcare solution, or project 100% to your peers, but you will gain confidence knowing you moved on with your life - WITHOUT H.

Trust what Kalni and I are saying - especially Kalni. She's very very experienced and wise. I'm pretty far along as well and have learned from my mistakes as well as my successes. every time I moved toward independence, I was shaking in my boots and sobbing, but on the other end I found myself. This will help us either to move on if the time comes, or to challenge H to stand by his decision to leave or not.

OF course if you end up divorced there will be lots of coparenting opportunities that will arise in many shapes and forms. But now you are DBing and that means being independent. That means letting him go to dig his own hole. And as you are not able to get much space since you're coparenting all the time at home, it would actually be really good for you and your R to have that space. You would also see that you CAN do things without him. That will increase your self confidence as a LBS.

That said, if you are going to send the letter, I'd DEFINTITELY send the second one~! Short and simple is the motto when dealing with childcare arrangements with WAH's. ALWAYS.

[Butterfly1]

So this was session #3 with IC. Some notes:

* he feels it's too early for me to see a L. he says that my rights aren't going to go away and there's no rush. a real relief to be honest...I just don't feel ready to make that real

* he said that when I start negative fantasizing (H having another child with OW, etc.) I'm re-traumatizing myself. When negative fantasizing starts, I need to get angry at it as part of my self care. If someone was talking to my children and telling them stories about what terrible things could happen in the future in addition to what they're suffering right now, I'd get really angry at that person. I need to get angry when negative fantasizing happens in my head.

* he got me to say that getting to the point of standing on my own two feet is what I need to do to take care of myself, and when I spend all of my time obsesssing on my sitch I make things worse for myself (because I don't have time/energy for self care)

* I make things worse for myself when I 1. negative fantasize 2. spend all my time on the forum/and thinking about my R

* when I am engaged in my life, try to adopt the "chop wood carry water" mentality

* I need to cultivate compassion for myself, stop taking an inappropriate proportion of the blame/responsibility for the marriage problems

* I need to see value in myself

* If I can value things about myself that others don't value, there is "double" value when others value things in me

* he said that time is on my side and that things will get better

* he said that if I want to reconcile, I can wait for X number of months, but in the meantime I need to put H aside and focus on self care

* he suggested that I calmly ask H "as we move forward I need to know if you are dating", as long as I can hear his answer without getting angry...he said that email would be OK if it was short and if I thought that it would work for our communication styles

* IC said that H has to be accountable to me and disclose his choice to date if that's what he's doing

* he wasn't pushing for H to come into a session and he accepted my concerns about H reinforcing his desire to D by expressing it in the session to me

Your IC is right~! But remember it will take many months to start living all this. As I"ve recommended to you before, take a small step for yourself.

Then another.

Print these out and carry them with you every day. REad them every morning and every night.

[newmama]

I'd say to ask him but keep your expectations low. If he declines, don't "punish" him by putting up that formal wall since you've noticed that he responds better when you're more relaxed and natural.

I agree!

But I think you still going will show your H that you're not putting your life on hold because of him. It's obviously something you'd like to do, so do it for yourself. It's not till the end of May so you can prepare yourself as much as possible being away from your babies that long. I think it would be good for you to go.

Flowmom, as another "career woman" and new mom, IT will be SOOOOO great to go! That part of you, the working woman part, is renewed and it just feels amazing! Now yes, you will miss your kids, but like Freckle says, you can prepare yourself. And talk to them on the phone every day. BUt you will be so disracted and feeling good that you might actually enjoy yourself and feel guilty that you are doing so LOL! (but you shouldn't because you won't be away from them for 3-4 days normally!)
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[flowmom]

Thanks for coming over here H4L. I really appreciate it.

It may seem like a trivial decision, but actually stuff like this is the stuff of my life and has been for years. What all of you have written is shifting how I am thinking about things like this.

I told my IC yesterday that what I need to do is to stand on my own two feet and take care of myself...because no one else will. I guess it is time to start now. I see that not solving the problems of how to have vacations with the children or do work events like this just continues the dependence that I have on H. Yes, I am entitled to ask him to do coparenting things, but I need to disengage from that as much as possible...for me. I need to prove to myself that I don't need him. And he will have to judge for himself how much the children need him.

I am going to plan B on this one...try to figure out how to make it work without H.

Also, I just realized that he would have to take 3 weekend shifts off to take care of the kids...and he would feel resentful about that. So I think I will take them with me and try to find someone to accompany us.

[flowmom]

[censored], [censored], [censored], [censored].

After the kids went to bed, H asked to have the kids stay overnight for 2 nights in a row this weekend (but he wants them to see me in the intervening day).

He works day and night shifts on an 8 day cycle so his schedule of night shifts is different every week. In the short term he wants the children to stay at his place 2 nights out of every 8, according to when he would be able to do that (there are only 3 nights a week out of 8 that he would be able to have them stay overnight). So it would look something like tues/wed one week, wed/thurs the next week, thurs/fri the next week. He then wants to build up to 3 nights out of 8.

I kept calm and expressed:

1. my concern about their current visible distress at the separation
2. my desire to have change happen very gradually for them and
2. my operating belief that children need a primary home and a consistent place to sleep and wake up (esp. a special needs and very young child).

H argued with me that
1. he doesn't believe that the children are distressed about the separation
2. the children were fine when they slept over before and they want to sleep over more
3. children are fine with "two homes"

Background here is that H has only EVER put them to bed 4 times, and they have only stayed overnight at his place twice.

Then I said that this is the first time that he has expressed what he wants and I want to think about it before talking more. I had to repeatedly ask for that before he agreed to let me absorb and think about it.

The conversation underlined to me:

- H is on the D path with no doubt in his mind
- H has zero desire or ability to see things from my perspective
- H is very defended against recognizing his children's pain in this sitch
- H is ready for a fight

I am proud of myself for asking to resume the conversation another day and not get bullied into either making a decision or having an argument. I am proud of myself for not getting angry or defensive. Ideally I would have validated more...hard for me to do with the adrenaline pumping. I'm proud that I defused things a lot: "let's just talk about the next month, not the long term", "we can probably find common ground here, but this is going to be more than one conversation", etc.

I feel angry that H expects me and the kids to work around his crazy schedule that has no relationship to their weekly routines and activities. We're already doing that during the day, but I don't feel good about doing that for overnights.

I don't even know how to tackle this. I assume that there's research to support all sorts of different coparenting/custody models depending on which advocacy group is behind it. I don't think that the research is going to tell me what my kids need. And I don't feel totally sure what my kids need either. I don't believe in the "two homes" model because that just doesn't fit with my belief of what "home" is. But frankly I haven't had a lot of time to absorb this and come to terms with my children living a completely different lifestyle than what I hoped for them.

I would appreciate input on this.

[courageous wife]

(((FM))) I don't have any advice but hope you and your H will be able to come to an agreement! It is good that he wants to spend time with his kids but understand your concern!

[flowmom]

I'm in a bad place again . I don't understand how H and I could see our children's well-being so differently.

[Butterfly1]

- H is ready for a fight

I am proud of myself for asking to resume the conversation another day and not get bullied into either making a decision or having an argument. I am proud of myself for not getting angry or defensive. Ideally I would have validated more...hard for me to do with the adrenaline pumping. I'm proud that I defused things a lot: "let's just talk about the next month, not the long term", "we can probably find common ground here, but this is going to be more than one conversation", etc.

I feel angry that H expects me and the kids to work around his crazy schedule that has no relationship to their weekly routines and activities. We're already doing that during the day, but I don't feel good about doing that for overnights.

Amazingly well done FM. My adrenaline gets pumping everytime H tries to bully me into taking my S to his place. Holding it together is the hardest thing in the world where my S is concerned. You did the best possible thing you could do. Congratulaions!!!!!!!!!!

And my POV is - stick to your beliefs. You are their mother. You know them more than anyone. Trust yourself. IF he's looking for a fight, too bad.

They often pick fights just to fight. Just to help them feel justified and avoid pain and responsibility for the pain they are causing everyone else in the family. That's why you did the best possible thing by not taking the bait. You stayed calm and rational. But that doesn't mean give in. If he wants formal arrangements, let him fight in court, not with you. You don't need any more fights. And you do need to protect your children from the pain he is causing them.

[Kalni]

Ohh come on!!!! The guy is in deep fog whatever this fog consists of. You expect his "paternal instinct" to be intact in the middle of this... No way! If he would agree that the kids were distressed he would be admitting he f@cked up as a father hurting and "leaving" them!!! No way he would do that. NO WAY. Very common. I keep repeating my experience but it's the only thing I know and I hope it helps you in some way. My H argued with and ignored the kid's therapist when she said they were really really sad and upset. For months!! He wouldnt believe me when I said they were having meltdowns, he kept saying "I dont know what you do to them, with me they are fine!!"... GRRRRRRR....
(today: he yelled at my son yesterday and was sad all day for "hurting" him, DUH!!!)

I know it's against your judgement, I am thinking you SHOULD give him the kids for extended times, call it a try to see how it goes, use phrases as "that would allow me to focus on my life as well". That way it would be a spectacular 180 (flow-mom becoming flo indivudual), and it would force him to see what his decision caused. He would have to become a flow dad on his own, without you helping and fixing things, it would maybe allow him to admit what great job you are doing... I dont know. Regarding the kids: I dont know about yours, mine were mirroring MY emotional state. I could influence their well being very much. Dont understimate your role in this even whe they are with him. HOw you talk to them on the phone, how you see them off, your smiles, body language... Kids notice and respond.

Calm down. You ll be fine.
K