Inspired an and hopeful

[ssmguy]

I know I can get the physical stuff right in a relationship, but the emotional connection has always been a problem for me, and with him it seemed like it might work … and he’s hot

I kind of envy you, because my experience has been the opposite. The emotional connection has always been easy for me, but the physical one has not (certainly not in my marriage). Maybe it has to do with the fact that I love conversations. Or for some reason, I end up having them for hours and hours.

I haven’t asked him where he stays when he goes home – but despite what he reckons about “not being married like (I) think he is” it would appear pretty clear that he’s staying at the family home.

OK, right off the bat, my reaction is you know way too little about him to let yourself be that involved with him. We may be different people, so my approach might not work for you, but here's what I would have done in your situation. If I really cared for him, I'd ask him a lot of questions about his relationship, and try to get him to see that he might be able to salvage his own relationship with his wife. I mean, you really cared for him as a person, right? If not, then you were in it just for yourself, right? You have to be honest with yourself too.

I feel really dirty. and really stupid.

Don't worry about that. It means you LEARNED something. You learend first-hand what is really difficult to learn by just hearing it from someone. No pain, no gain, as they say!

So, sincerely admitting that I haven’t been living up to my highest ethical values, and I haven’t been taking your advice … I’m back on the wagon. I’m dumping his sorry ar$e and focussing on love.

OK, here's where I differ from you, and it might get to your point about emotional vs. physical connections and what you have difficulty with. Again, don't take this advice, because it might not work for you. But if I were in your shoes, I remain friends with this person, if possible. I mean, you both cared for each other in some way, no? I have never "dumped" a woman, ever. I have only indicated that I would like to be friends (and imply only friends). But I have had several women who refused to talk to me because I did not want to get romantically involved with them, but that was their choice. And yes, because they refused to talk to me, I felt more "used" by them than women who were fine being only friends. It's hard to escape the feeling that a woman who "dumped" me in this way was only interested in me as a romantic object, or as a "boyfriend" they could "show off" to their friends, that is, I was someone only fulfilling a "status" for them.

And that is the way I feel about any woman. If we're friends, then we're friends forever, even if the sex doesn't work out. But maybe that's just me, and I'm not like most people.

DQ, your'e welcome to get on my case about this, as you've pointed out that I'm nothing special, and my situation is nothing special. I'm just arrogant enough to THINK I'm special. So burst my little bubble if you want! ;-) [/quote]

[lms Sunshine]

Hi DQ

Thanks for the tip on Mars/Venus on a date. I've ordered it and depending on the mail I should receive it by the end of this week.

I found that web-site/message board (you're right it is yucky) but there's some good stuff on there and I'll sign up and start posting. V. good insights for me, particularly that stuff around how men and women deal so differently with the "attraction" stage.

One more thing...isn't there any man who IS available who may be right under your nose, maybe someone you haven't even thought of, someone who may have a crush on you but you didn't really pay him much attention...at work or near your home or...anywhere?

Funny you should mention that. There are 2 men here who have been asking me out. I went out with one of them at the weekend. It was OK. He’s a nice guy. Not the same sort of spark as with Mr Unavailable, but comfortable. He’s asked me to the theatre later this week and I’ll go (but to be honest, I’m making myself because I know it’s good for me, not because I’m really into him).

Thank you for the time you’ve taken to post to me. I really appreciate it … and I am really learning.

Cheers, LMS

[lms Sunshine]

My advice is that you both need to be totally honest. That means you have to get him to be totally honest. And likewise you have to be totally honest with him.

How do you get a man to be “totally honest” with you, without breaking all those rules about no-pursuit, being easy-going, carefree, not fussed … etc etc etc….

The more I read about the “rules” of dating the more I wonder how anyone ends up with anyone.

I’ve only pressed the “what’s your situation thing” once. His response was that he’ll tell me all about it when we’re face-to-face in the capital in a couple of weeks. He teased me about it over the next couple of days – like “are you looking forward to hearing my story?” “so you want to know what’s up with me?” kind of teasing – but this goes back to the “Rules” … he could legitimately be a separated/divorced man who takes a while to open up about his personal life – and the literature tells me, I should respect that.

If I really cared for him, I'd ask him a lot of questions about his relationship, and try to get him to see that he might be able to salvage his own relationship with his wife. I mean, you really cared for him as a person, right? If not, then you were in it just for yourself, right?

If he told me he was married, or that “she didn’t understand him” or that “he had a sex-starved marriage” I’d hand him a copy of Divorce Busting and sending him straight to this board. No questions asked.

But this goes to another thing I’m confused about with men. Is it OK to ask them lots of questions about their life? (I sound like I need an anthropologist! … “tell me about this species know as MALE") The literature implies women should build an environment of trust and when a man trusts you enough he’ll open up organically. That’s the theory I’ve been working off … you’re suggesting a different approach.

OK, right off the bat, my reaction is you know way too little about him to let yourself be that involved with him.

I had a lightbulb moment yesterday reading that other message board DQ suggested to me. It seems women (in this case me) often misunderstand what it means when a man pursues them (me). Certainly it’s the case for me, that while he’s been constantly pursuing me, I’ve been warming up and building this movie in my mind that leads to a “relationship”. It’s likely that he’s just attracted to me and isn’t thinking much past if I’ll kiss him or sleep with him when we are in the same city. So you’re right. I’ve built an “involvement” in my head, based on his very diligent pursuit, which when it comes down to it is really nothing more than daily flirty, fun telephone and e-mail conversations.

But if I were in your shoes, I remain friends with this person, if possible. I mean, you both cared for each other in some way, no?

Yes. You’re right. This goes to that mars/venus stuff too. We were friends before his pursuit and attention started. We’re colleagues. We’ve got a lot in common. Nothing dodgy has happened. I’m not embarrassed or ashamed of what’s been going on … I’m just worried that it’s possibly an ‘emotional affair’ and again, maybe I’m reading too much into that.

But … is it normal for a man to be so diligently contacting, flirting and arranging meetings with a single woman if he’s not interested in something more than being friends? That’s the million $ question for me.

[DanceQueen]

"But … is it normal for a man to be so diligently contacting, flirting and arranging meetings with a single woman if he’s not interested in something more than being friends?"

He's interested in being friends who sleep together. So yes, its normal. That's why the pursuit is so hard. He's not interested in "more" than FWB if he's married.

DQ

[ssmguy]

How do you get a man to be “totally honest” with you, without breaking all those rules about no-pursuit, being easy-going, carefree, not fussed … etc etc etc….

I can only speak for myself, and I don't claim that my way is the right way or the best way, or that it would work for other people. But my approach would be to get him to want to tell you about his personal situation. Make him feel that he can trust you, and that you're interested in what he's dealing with and his feelings about it. It's kind of like playing therapist. And the more he tells you, the more opportunity you have to see if it all feels correct and if it's consistent.

And, you know, this doesn't apply to just finding out what's up with a "married" man. It also applies to those perpetually single men who are always circulating around town and never settle down. They might tell you just what you want to hear, even while they're sleeping around with other women at the same time.

Just heard on TV a relationship expert say that divorced men are the best bet for women (excpet for women in their 20's looking for their first long-term relationship, of course) because they have a proven history of being able to commit.

The more I read about the “rules” of dating the more I wonder how anyone ends up with anyone.

Funny thing, I never worried about that because I always approached it as just making friends. In fact, in college, I ended up going out as friends with women who didn't want the pressure of going out on a formal date. And some of them ended up wanting to sleep with me. But we never dated, or so we deluded ourselves. I think dating has too many expectations and pressure for a lot of people.

If he told me he was married, or that “she didn’t understand him” or that “he had a sex-starved marriage” I’d hand him a copy of Divorce Busting and sending him straight to this board. No questions asked.

Not a bad approach, and maybe best for you. My approach would be to talk to him about his marriage and play therapist. But that might take experience having done that and feeling comfortable with it. I mean, if a friend had a problem with his boss, or his marriage, I wouldn't just hand him a book. I'd take the role of therapist and talk to him about it.

But this goes to another thing I’m confused about with men. Is it OK to ask them lots of questions about their life? (I sound like I need an anthropologist! … “tell me about this species know as MALE") The literature implies women should build an environment of trust and when a man trusts you enough he’ll open up organically. That’s the theory I’ve been working off … you’re suggesting a different approach.

The reason you trust a therapist is you know they're not going to use what you tell them against you. And you expect them to be empathic.

As for it being OK to ask men lots of questions about their life -- hey, we're all different, and our circumstances are different. I personally like having someone take an interest. And I'm very talkative. But I know a lot of guys aren't.

It’s likely that he’s just attracted to me and isn’t thinking much past if I’ll kiss him or sleep with him when we are in the same city.

Yeah, don't assume he's got a well-planned agenda, though I suspect some guys do if they're serial "players". But for a lot of guys with faltering marriages, they have unmet emotional and physical needs, and all they know is it feels good to have a woman's attention, and be admired, etc. It's certainly not just about the sex for a lot of men.

I’ve built an “involvement” in my head, based on his very diligent pursuit, which when it comes down to it is really nothing more than daily flirty, fun telephone and e-mail conversations.

Hmmm, yeah, definitely sounds like a man who is not getting a lot of attention from his wife. And the reasons for that could be complicated and long-term contributions on both his and her parts.

I learned long ago that I could easily spot the woman at the office who was not getting enough attention from her husband or boyfriend at home. Such a woman will respond to even a mild compliment or flirtation with more energy and appreciation than other women. The woman with her family pictures and husband's pictures all over her desk, and who only wants to talk business does not send that message.

We were friends before his pursuit and attention started. We’re colleagues. We’ve got a lot in common. Nothing dodgy has happened. I’m not embarrassed or ashamed of what’s been going on … I’m just worried that it’s possibly an ‘emotional affair’ and again, maybe I’m reading too much into that.

My approach would be to date other people. You can't directly control how you feel about this guy, but you can fill your romantic life with more realistic prospects, which will lessen your temptation to continue talking so much with the married guy. And you'll be in a less vulnerable or needy state when you talk to him. And I think that will also give you a better perspective on your relationship with the married guy and where you want that to go.

But … is it normal for a man to be so diligently contacting, flirting and arranging meetings with a single woman if he’s not interested in something more than being friends? That’s the million $ question for me.

Depends on the man and the situation. A lot of times, we just go on emotions and needs at the moment. Just the need for some attention and admiration, especially if it's unmet at home. Other times a man might have a fantasy that there's going to be hot sex. And when he meets a woman who actually wants to give him hot sex, he can sometimes inexplicably (to the confused woman, at least) chicken out, realizing that the fantasy and the reality were two different things. If he's a perceptive man, he might, for example, chicken out of sex if he senses that it means more than that to you, and you're going to complicate his marriage because you'll want more. Or if he's foolish, as many men are in this sense, he'll say anything to get sex, and ignore what it means to you, and get himself in a heap of trouble as you get angry with him and repeat what happened to that ESPN sportscaster (where the girlfriend fell in love with the married sportscaster and drover her car all over his lawn and left a note for his wife).

It's all confusing and unpredictable. And sometimes it's all too predictable. Does that clear it up!!! You really need a sense of humor and good friends to get through this part of life sometimes!

And, yeah, I agree with DQ. He probably is looking for FWB. But that doesn't mean it's what he'd actually do. He might chicken out. Or he might fall in love. He can't directly control his emotions any more than you can.

[Cyrena]

LMS, I had to respond to the advice, above, to "talk to him about his marriage and play therapist." Yes, this is one kind of affair that people can have. It's incredibly insulting to think that as a completely untrained therapist one could leap into a complex situation and "fix it," (and laughable that an affair partner could have enough distance to see anything except from his/her own pov), but some people do this to mitigate their guilt about interfering in a marriage. It is a way of bolstering low self-esteem and making themselves feel important when, obviously, they know nothing about making relationships work, or they wouldn't be there.

So far, I understand, you don't know whether this guy is married or not. If he is, do not expect to have these incredibly truthful talks with him, because if there's one thing men having affairs will be consistent about, it's about lying, lying, lying, and misrepresenting themselves and their situation. And who wants to be just another one of Tiger's--or any other version of him--conquests? It sounds as though you're looking for a lot more.

If you find out that this guy is married, there really is no reason for him chasing you which will lead to a satisfying relationship for you. 97% of relationships which begin as affairs fail because of the guilt and lies. I know you've already had various book suggestions, but I'd suggest looking at "Not Just Friends," by Shirley Glass. It has a section for the "other woman," explaining what traps she is falling into and how to turn things around so that she respects herself enough not to let herself fall for guys who aren't actually able to fully commit.

[ssmguy]

LMS, I had to respond to the advice, above, to "talk to him about his marriage and play therapist." Yes, this is one kind of affair that people can have. It's incredibly insulting to think that as a completely untrained therapist one could leap into a complex situation and "fix it," (and laughable that an affair partner could have enough distance to see anything except from his/her own pov), but some people do this to mitigate their guilt about interfering in a marriage. It is a way of bolstering low self-esteem and making themselves feel important when, obviously, they know nothing about making relationships work, or they wouldn't be there.

For someone who finds it insulting to play therapist, you seem to have no problem playing therapist yourself and offering a complete psychoanalysis of someone playing therapist. And you don't seem to allow for anything except selfish and pitiful motives for someone trying to help another person. Do you believe that people in relationships are only operating with selfish motives, unable to show any altruism at all? It's important to me for any relationship to involve trust and friendship, and what you describe -- mitigating one's guilt, being insulting -- have nothing to do with friendship. If that's all you're doing in a "relationship", there is no friendship at all as I see it. It's just two people using each other. Well, maybe you're right -- I suppose a lot of affairs that end badly are based on just that.

When I say, "play therapist", I meant putting your own interests aside for a moment, and helping a friend. I don't mean presenting yourself as a qualified therapist. I should never have used that word.

So far, I understand, you don't know whether this guy is married or not. If he is, do not expect to have these incredibly truthful talks with him, because if there's one thing men having affairs will be consistent about, it's about lying, lying, lying, and misrepresenting themselves and their situation.

I would agree that many men lie in this situation, and it's certainly something to be on the lookout for. But you're wrong about that being consistently true in all situations. The way you repeat "lying" three times suggests a fervor born from personal experience, or at least that's the way it comes across to me. Yeah, a lot of women have been badly burned by men, just as men have been badly burned by women. There are all too many men who sit in bars and describe women with unflattering words, repeated three times for emphasis.

And who wants to be just another one of Tiger's--or any other version of him--conquests? It sounds as though you're looking for a lot more.

Again, a gross generalization, even though often true. There are many men and women have been rejected by their spouses for years, and are trying their best to deal with it, but have big issues with getting a divorce at that moment. Men or women who are emotionally or sexually starved and are hoping for maybe just a connection to make them feel better, and don't know the best way to deal with it.

To be clear, I don't think Tiger fits in this category at all, as I don't get the impression his wife was rejecting him, and one certainly doesn't need 14 mistresses to meet a need one isn't getting at home. So yes, I would agree with your characterization (just another conquest) in Tiger's case.

97% of relationships which begin as affairs fail because of the guilt and lies.

True, but what you might find is that the 3% who "succeed" do so because both parties are unusually honest, open, and fair to their partners about what is going on. And if one makes an effort to make any such potential relationship honest, the other party will more quickly realize the game is up, or you'll increase the chances that you can make it work.

If you were to go on statistics alone, nobody would ever get married. Since half of all marriages fail, and many of those that don't fail end up being unhappy anyway, only a minority of marriages end up happy. So does that mean one shouldn't get married?

I know a couple where the husband had an affair, and then the wife did. But they were both honest about it and worked it out. They are now both happily married to their affair partners. In retrospect, it would have been pompous and unproductive of me to have quoted statistics and advised them against doing what turned out well.

I know you've already had various book suggestions, but I'd suggest looking at "Not Just Friends," by Shirley Glass. It has a section for the "other woman," explaining what traps she is falling into and how to turn things around so that she respects herself enough not to let herself fall for guys who aren't actually able to fully commit.

True, but remember that a lot of single guys are single BECAUSE they have trouble comitting, or because they LIKE playing the field and sleeping with many women at the same time, and many of them will also lie to you about it. Divorced men may be your best bet -- they have a proven track record of commitment, at least. But even they are often saddled with the emotional baggage from their last relationship. So if you want to go by just statistics and logic, your best bet for finding a man with a proven track record of commitment and marriage is to go to the graveyard and wait for widowers to place flowers on their deceased wives' graves. A macabre approach to be sure, but a coldly logical one.

[Cyrena]

Oh, I know I'm not qualified to play therapist--I was just giving a summary of some of the literature out there. I don't feel I'm psychoanalysing Little Miss, since she's not actually said she'd like to play therapist with the married guy. I'm only commenting on the advice she was given.

As Shirley Glass (among many others) points out, "The married lover frequently feeds into the other woman's perception that she is doing no harm. To keep his affair partner on the string, he feeds into her belief that he is stuck in an empty-shell marriage because of family responsibilities. But no matter how her married lover may have demeaned his wife, the affair partner who turns his wife into a nonperson is devaluing women, in general."

"The other woman may use rationalization, denial, or unconscious mechanisms to avoid feeling guilty. In some cases, she simply has no conscience about what she is doing and no empathy for the wife ... she is sabotaging."

"Assuming the role of family therapist is another way to assuage guilt. ... the affair partner PERCEIVES herself as someone who makes positive contributions to her lover's family life."

Who would want to put themselves in a position where they have to deal with incredible guilt, so much self-deception, and the agony they'll be causing another woman once she finds out?

Part of the reason only 3% of affairs result in lasting marriages is that, even in the highly unlikely event that the affair partners managed to be completely honest with each other, each one knows that the other one has a proven track record of lying to his/her spouse, sneaking around behind his/her back, and looking for a new partner instead of fixing problems in the marriage. It's hardly a recipe for everlasting trust and partnership.

[lms Sunshine]

Thanks all for your thoughtful replies.

I'm an economist who works as a diplomat, stumbling through a period of (not very sophisticated) personal growth and transformation - so any suggestion that I would inflict myself on someone as a "therapist" is kind of funny. (my friends would certainly laugh).

I'm also a woman. I don't do other women's husbands ... that's the girl code and it's not OK. I’m very uncomfortable about possibly contributing to an ‘emotional affair’ that will impact on a woman some where’s marriage.

In my perfect fantasy world, this fellow has been separated from his wife for 3 years, has been through a period of reflection and a couple of rebound flings … and wouldn’t you know it, destiny has shined on me and I’ve found a man who I can have an emotional connection with who I also find very attractive.

That may be his story – but intuitively I think it’s more complicated than that. I actually suspect they are formally separated, but I think it’s quite recent. He’s a decent bloke and we’ve got friends in common, to whom I’ve recently asked subtle questions. Whatever the story is, it’s sensitive.

SSMGuy, your approach is a very attractive one. It’s the path of least resistance – and the one that I was travelling before I started really thinking about how healthy, or unhealthy that might be. Sure, I could just keep being friends with him, enjoy the attention, see where it goes. BUT – if he’s got a dysfunctional marriage I’m not doing anyone any favours. I’m a distraction for him dealing with whatever his issues might be, I’m contributing to his marriage problems (which include his wife’s problems, without her knowledge or consent) by being that distraction, and it’s really a complication for my life that I don’t need. I don’t want drama in my life (sure the drama is a diversion, but that keeps me from focussing and aiming for my highest good).

Cyrena, to his credit, he has at no time

Fed into (my) belief that he is stuck in an empty-shell marriage because of family responsibilities. …. or demeaned his wife

He just doesn’t talk about it at all.

In my defence

The other woman may use rationalisation, denial, or unconscious mechanisms to avoid feeling guilty. In some cases, she simply has no conscience about what she is doing and no empathy for the wife … she is sabotaging

I’m not rationalising anything … I’m reflecting seriously on these issues even without knowing if they are issues.

Anyway, I take all of your advice and views seriously and I’m now ignoring his calls and I’ve blocked him from my instant messaging mediums. I’ve had a couple of light e-mails from him over the last couple of days and have left it at – ‘yep, see you in the Capital next week’. I’m travelling now, so I’ve got a reason to be difficult to contact and I’ll see him next week, in a professional environment and I’ll play it by ear. We’ve still got a date set for Sat 20th, I don’t know what I’ll do about that yet.

I went to the theatre with the other guy last night. It was fun. Frankly, I don’t even know if I have the energy for all this.

I’ve been fine for the past couple of years taking a lover every now and then without strings attached – maybe this adventure into intimacy just isn’t for me.

[ssmguy]

As Shirley Glass (among many others) points out, "The married lover frequently feeds into the other woman's perception that she is doing no harm. To keep his affair partner on the string, he feeds into her belief that he is stuck in an empty-shell marriage because of family responsibilities. But no matter how her married lover may have demeaned his wife, the affair partner who turns his wife into a nonperson is devaluing women, in general."

Yeah, the stereotyped affair scenario. Elements of that exist in many affairs, but the reality is sometimes far more varied than that. I have trouble buying into these kinds of pat explanations that are mostly based on cynical motives. You could say the same about dating relationships, "he just wanted to use her for sex", instead of "he found her beauty overwhelming and wanted to make love to her". Saying the same thing cynically or poetically. You pick the flavor depending on whether you want to convey disapproval or approval.

"Assuming the role of family therapist is another way to assuage guilt. ... the affair partner PERCEIVES herself as someone who makes positive contributions to her lover's family life."

That isn't the context I meant at all. I meant NOT having the affair, and helping as a friend. My basic assumption is that a potential affair partner is first and foremost a friend. Or am I missing something here?

Who would want to put themselves in a position where they have to deal with incredible guilt, so much self-deception, and the agony they'll be causing another woman once she finds out?

Exactly, that's why I think honesty is so important.

Part of the reason only 3% of affairs result in lasting marriages is that, even in the highly unlikely event that the affair partners managed to be completely honest with each other, each one knows that the other one has a proven track record of lying to his/her spouse, sneaking around behind his/her back,

I don't really think of that as being honest. I meant totally honest with everyone. If you are going to have an affair, or you feel tempted to have one, you should let your spouse know. If you spouse cares, they will work to fix the problem.

As for the 3%, you have to be careful with statistics. Many, if not most, affair partners never intended for it to result in marriage in the first place, and got what they wanted out of the affair. Also, only a small percentage of affairs are ever found out. And if you compare it to dating relationships, the majority of those don't turn into marriage either.

and looking for a new partner instead of fixing problems in the marriage.

You're making the assumption that anyone having an affair has NOT tried to fix the problem in their marriage. Sometimes it's completely the opposite. For some people, an affair results only after extensive efforts to repair the marriage have failed. And some people even use an affair as a way to get out of a marriage.

It's hardly a recipe for everlasting trust and partnership.

Exactly, which is why I believe the best path is being honest with everyone. It forces the issues in ways that are good for everyone, and leaves no surprises and leaves no room for blackmail.

The couple that I mentioned who married their affair partners -- that couple kept no secrets from each other either. That was my point. I guess I didn't make that clear enough. They remain good friends, but they realized they weren't meeting each other's needs.