Wow, I think EVERY LINE you have up there of yours is pursuit.. EVERY LINE
Now this I am on a date thing...
If he tells you outright he's on a DATE, you HANG UP
I don't care if he's joking or if he is serious.. HANG UP
Do NOT call him back.. send him an email and tell him if he wants to say anything he cal contact your father
We both know he wont.
Seriously, you need to set boundaries... if he crosses them, you CUT HIM OUT...
That is how you play that game of his.. he can't play the game if you dont' play along...
I am sorry, but I wasn't aware he was sociopathic like that...
THAT crap needs to STOP as much as the affair does... I can see why he cheats now, its a game fo rhim to avoid getting caught.. its a game for him to get away with it with no consequences...
When you call him and play these games of his you enable the sociopathy and his affair...
Wow.. I am speechless on this one.
Ya, your dad is right, he has a LONG way to go if he thinks calling your wife up whom you cheated on and announce you are on "a date" is funny... that's showing a serious lack of compassion there...
I would send him an email tonight very much like mb28's telling him more or less the same thing
But I would include something to the effect of
----------------
Infidelity is NOT something of amusement, YOU are a PARENT... but your children show more maturity than YOU do... you are NOT FIT to be NEAR them.
And "dating" while you are married is called "cheating". It's disgusting and I don't want our child growing up in that environment EVER... stay away from our son.
Do NOT contact me again until you are prepared to see a FT and start to clean up your act
If you DO find the maturity to accomlish this you can contact my father, children should NOT be exposed to you right now.
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Seriously, calling up to make some joke that he's on a date? Does he honestly think that's funny? He's married, what kind of perverse joke is that?
Hmmm... maybe he was drunk, do you think he'd been drinking?
You need to SERIOUSLY stop the pursuit and end contact with this guy for now... until you can control yourself .. otherwise yoru child is at risk being exposed to that.
Children that grow up with a parent who plays mind games like that grow up to feel TERRIBLY insecure and unloved, they need COMMITMENT and UNCONDITIONAL LOVE, not second guessing and doubt...
The feelings he leaves them with are the ones they CARRY with them into adulthood
Do you want him doing that to your child? Playing head games with your son making your son doubt if he's loved or not? Seriously?
I am sure this man can be very generous and a very hard worker, but the maturity level needs to improve and YOU need to CUT him OUT until it DOES...
Seriously no relationship he has is going to last long anyways... no one will put up with that for very long...
If THAT is his idea of fun, he needs to change... FAST...
i can see why you are so upset, that is a VERY HURTFUL behaviuor to be engaging in with your wife...
He should be leaving you with HOPE and CONFIDENCE and TRUST, not doubts, insecurity, and frustration...
He will leave your child feeling like that... do NOT let him do that...
I am NOT saying he's hopeless, I am NOT saying he's a mosnter, but he NEEDS to CHANGE.. DRASTICALLY if that is his idea of fun... and I haven't even started on this "date" thing.. he has two women who has children with and now he might be dating???
I guess my wording was pursuit. I just didn't know what was going on with the no contact. Like I said, either way he would turn it around on me. The sociopathic behavior is what my dad has been pointing out. I talked to my dad and he said he would be willing to talk to husband to show him and guide him into what being a man is about but my dad said that my husband is NO WHERE near ready to even begin hearing that part. My dad actually clarified his job...he is a mental health professional with a focus on drug/alcohol recovery. He believes husband exhibits boderline personality disorder with some sociopathic tendancies as well as narcassism.
I feel bad for calling him...I also got the book "Why Men Love Bitches" and in the book it says that sometimes a man won't call just to see how you will respond and to gain reassurance about where he stands with you. I think this may be what my husband was doing. The author also points out that a man not calling gives him the freedom to breathe. The book says that I should have basically acted as though I didn't notice that husband hasn't contacted me.
So you suggest that I send husband an email tonight? I was just not going to answer any of his calls but an email saying why NC might be better and show him how adults do not play games.
Me: 28 H: 32 1st marriage 4 both 1 1/2 year married 2gether for 9 1S: 6months 1stepson: 2yo
"Seriously, calling up to make some joke that he's on a date? Does he honestly think that's funny? He's married, what kind of perverse joke is that?
Hmmm... maybe he was drunk, do you think he'd been drinking?
You need to SERIOUSLY stop the pursuit and end contact with this guy for now... until you can control yourself .. otherwise yoru child is at risk being exposed to that."
I had to address ^ this separately. This scares me that his behavior will affect our son. No, I do not want my son in that type of environment. This is something that my dad mentioned tonight when I was trying to convince him to talk with husband on a regular basis. He said that husband is providing an unstable environment for his grandson and that I need to be very cautious to protect son from that. I feel sick to my stomach to think how my son could be affected by my actions as well as husbands. This is not about me. Like I told mb28, NC with my husband is now about my son. I have to be that stable parent in his life.
Me: 28 H: 32 1st marriage 4 both 1 1/2 year married 2gether for 9 1S: 6months 1stepson: 2yo
Yup, I am on side with your father about that one...
I had no idea about this behaviour at all...
There are signs of the sociopathy now
He got you to write is resume He got you to take him into your parents home when they wouldnt' let him in He gets you to pursue him even after cheating on you He gets you to jump through hoop after hoop to save a marriage and calls you up to tell you he's "dating?"
This is blatant socipathy... this I mean he gets a fix from GETTING something out of people while giving nothing in return.. its something like an addiction... You can likely add a lot of others up too
Your father is not qualified to help H with that. There IS therapy for this and he CAN see someone, but you need to go into protection phase.
The thing is, mates very often treat their chidlren the way they treat their spouses... if they treat YOU well they will treat your CHILDREN well... and the other end of the spectrum is unfortunately true as well...
I honelsty think he doens't realise the damage he's doing... is a developmental probelm where a sociopath is unable to adequately empathize with the person tehy are hurting such that they can stop... they just don't GET that they are HURTING anyone ... Your F can explain this much better than i...
But I didn't notice much until you posted this phone call...
Ya, if he tries to get into "game" mode just HANG UP... he is ENJOYING your pursuit, he thinks its CUTE, it makes HIM feel better while YOU feel WORSE every exchange, that's NOT healthy for you... and it won't be healthy for your son.. he WILL play the same games with him
SON : Do you like my painting dad? F : Do you want me to like it? SON : I want you to like it... F : Well, I dont' konw if I do... will you love me if I like it? SON : Yes dad! F : Ok, I will think about liking it then and I will let you know... SON : Daaaaaaaaaaad... do you LIKE my PAINTING?
Can you see the game the father plays in this above?
THAT is sociopathy, he's getting a HIGH from watching his son BEG for validation, and his father dangles it over his head like a carrot he can't reach...
That phone call earlier reads VERY MUCH the same as this sample I wrote here...
Your H LOVES your pursuit, he gets OFF on it.
I think the BEST way to get to him is to SHUT him OUT ENTIRELY.. no exposure to son either...
UNTIL your H is in therapy for adequate treatment don't waste time pursuing him. And you do NOT have the time or the experience to get him into therapy... I would tell your F to give him an hour to see if H is willing to start therapy for sociopathy and he can't have ANY contact with you until he's made some headway there...
your F may be able to point him in a healthy direction, but I would'nt ask your F to put a lot fo time into guiding him... if your H is sociopathic he will just find a way to make a game out of the guidance your F offers him instead of working with it appreciatively.
I am NOT writing off your H. But he cannot be around your son while he continues the sociopathy... its NOT healthy for anyone to be around...
This is what sociopaths with a disorder do.. they show up in a community, use everyone, drive them away because they can't be around them without getting HURT, and the sociopath just moves to a new town and starts ALL over again
Now, your H isn't moving around like that, he Has friends and family right? SO he's NOT THAT ILL or he would have driven EVERYONE away... the fact that he CAN have a healthy relationship is a good sign.. assuming he DOES have a healthy relationship with someone... who he doens't play games with...
I suspect he plays the same games with OW and now has you two playing off each other, both pursuing him while he's with the other... its classic.. THAT is why he's doing it most likley.. Do you think his bouts of feeling miserable are just a ploy to get you to pursuue him? Do you think he's sincere? I suspect he may actually be sincere there, but he can't stop doing what he does .. its often the case... They know they drive people away and they hate it, but they don't know how to stop.
You will very likley need someone living with you while you are in protection phase, or your husband WILL talk you into contact with him and with his son again... when YOU go into protection phase, to HIM the GAME is getting you to BREAK protection phase .. once you do that, he's WON.
He WILL make a game out of it... you need someone to step up to run interference...
I don't think he's a terrible person, I used to have a buddy who was a serious sociopath when I was in university.. he borrowed a lot of money from people and didn't pay them back... He would just tell me, well, I can have 500 bucks free, OR I can have his friendship back... frankly his friendship isnt worth 500 bucks, so I am gonna keep the 500 instead. He cheated on his GF multiple times too until she finally got away from him...
I don't know what happened to him because he ended up taking money from me as well... i asked for it back and HE thought it was a game too... and I didn't want to play it and I just wrote him off... I don't know what he's doin now.. I don't know if he ever got past that problem of his...
Ya seriously, he might be a great father one day, but right now you need to protect yourself from him with no contact at all... you called there...
Your plan is still the same, you point him in the direction to get some help and you end contact until he's made headway there... if your F can get him a name of a professional who does that sort of thing then get him that much help and then leave him on his own to follow it or not... he's very likley feeding off the sympathy and sabotaging it later on... don't put more than one hour into pointing him in a healthy direction...
After that, he's on his own there...
I don't think he will take to no contact, I suspect he will hate it... that may just be the incentive he needs to change.. I would definitely go for it.
The impact on son has scared me enough to take this NC VERY seriously. Do I still need to send the NC email?
I was thinking that he will know that his "joking" about being on a date would be the reason that I don't want to talk to him. I dunno...the NC email could be beneficial or just make it more of a game to him.
BTW...to address what you wrote above, husband has said that he manipulates everything and everyone. That he manipulates OW (the one he has a child with) and introduces a third party (not sure about his one...apparently another OW) to neutralize the situation. I wrote about this in one of my earlier posts under newcomers...I will post in later. Husband says that he tells people what he knows they want to hear in order to play the game.
Me: 28 H: 32 1st marriage 4 both 1 1/2 year married 2gether for 9 1S: 6months 1stepson: 2yo
This is my post from January 19, 2010 under newcomers:
thx everyone for you supportive words. I still feel numb. Husband and I talked for two hours last night and I told him I just want the truth. I told him that I do not want a divorce but I see no other option when he is not willing to put any effort into the marriage. Then I just let him talk and sort of followed the lead because I wanted the truth or at least see his version of the entire picture and it was worst than I thought.
I told husband that I felt that I was the only one getting the lies and he said that isn't true. That he is lying to everyone in his "triangle" because its all a game to him. He says he gets an adrenaline rush by doing what he is doing. he says I probably think I am the only one getting the lies because I am the one that asks him the most questions and we live together. He told me that OW #1 (this is the one he has child by) is getting lied to as well. he wouldn't tell me the exact lies but he says that he has been manipulating her and stroking her ego to see their child. OW #1 lives 9 hours away and he told me that they have been in a PA for 6 months. She drives to see him and pays for a hotel room. OW #2 also lives about 9 hours away...they also went to college together and they meet at a half way point. Both OW know that he is married but OW #2 thinks that we are separated.
My husband denied that OW #1 knows anything about us and our marital problems which I know to not be true. The text messages that she sent with divorce information lets me know that she knows. I pressed him on his motives to basically start a relationship with her and he said "do you really think I would leave one relationship and jump into another?" i didn't answer becasue crazier things have happened.
So, that leaves me in a weird place. Usually people on this site try to bust up the affair but I have no affair to bust up because he has come clean (for the most part) about everything.
Me: 28 H: 32 1st marriage 4 both 1 1/2 year married 2gether for 9 1S: 6months 1stepson: 2yo
Look at his pattern...getting OW1 to drive to see him...all he does is stroke her ego...OW2 getting the lies of being separated...he is like a puppet master and admits to "getting off" on the adrenaline rush.
He wants you to pursue him, so that he can lie to and manipulate you. The NC is the best thing, like allen said he cant play a game if you're not playing...that will likely intrigue him. Most importantly you should take that time for yourself to become stronger and detach.
His games will get old b/c they will hurt people...you are better than that and no one here wants to see you get hurt. But you must stick to it...
Allen and maynard...THANK YOU FOR THE TRUTH DARTS!!! Below are the main truth darts from Allen's posts that I will repeat and drill into my head until NC and detachment becomes natural for me. I feel good today and I have my first meeting with FT today.
"you need to set boundaries... if he crosses them, you CUT HIM OUT..."
"When you call him and play these games of his you enable the sociopathy and his affair..."
"You need to SERIOUSLY stop the pursuit and end contact with this guy for now... until you can control yourself"
"If he tries to get into "game" mode just HANG UP... he is ENJOYING your pursuit, he thinks its CUTE, it makes HIM feel better while YOU feel WORSE every exchange, that's NOT healthy for you."
"the BEST way to get to him is to SHUT him OUT ENTIRELY.. no exposure to son either...UNTIL your H is in therapy for adequate treatment don't waste time pursuing him. And you do NOT have the time or the experience to get him into therapy"
"Your plan is still the same, you point him in the direction to get some help and you end contact until he's made headway there... "
"he's very likley feeding off the sympathy and sabotaging it later on... don't put more than one hour into pointing him in a healthy direction...After that, he's on his own there..."
"I don't think he will take to no contact, I suspect he will hate it... that may just be the incentive he needs to change.. I would definitely go for it."
To answer your question Allen about whether husband is sincere about how he is feeling I think he was but I also think that he uses his feelings to play the victim and to get sympathy. Then he uses the sympathy as a ploy to get back on top in his mental game with the opponent (me, OW, etc.). When my dad talked to him last weekend, he said that one of the most critical things that my husband did is that he always used chess or football in comparing things that were happening in his life. To be honest, I sat and thought about how if my husband was some regular guy that I was dating and told me that he was on a date how I would react. I wouldn't react angrily, I just wouldn't talk to him anymore because obviously his expectations of a relationship and mine differ...no need to argue about I just would cut that guy off. So despite the history that I share with husband, I am going to give him the same treatment as a regular guy would get from me with his actions.
Me: 28 H: 32 1st marriage 4 both 1 1/2 year married 2gether for 9 1S: 6months 1stepson: 2yo
husband text me twice late last night asking if I was sleep or was I up. I ignored both. I am not some woman on the side that you can tell you were out on a date and then text me after your so called date. PULLLEASE!!!
Me: 28 H: 32 1st marriage 4 both 1 1/2 year married 2gether for 9 1S: 6months 1stepson: 2yo
