Looking for help with WAW

[jasper67]

mz, I feel for you, I really do.

I'm in the exact same boat, but there is an A on W's part.

Sadly, it doesn't explain anything away for me, it only angers me that she's blind to what is holding us back.

When W told me what all the issues were in the M- I wasn't upset, I was excited...I figured we could go to MC for the first time and really make some progress...unfortunately- W said she was done...a month later I discover OM1.

It is infuriating- to know what all the problems were and not get that one second chance...it literally is criminal!

Keep you head held high- you are a man of men and although this is tradgic- it's not yet over, and you will be able to move forward knowing you were willing to do whatever it would take.

[mza8]

Maynard, thanks. I caught up on your sitch and I'm hoping things turn around for you too. I wish my W would be mature enough to tell me her issues with M but sadly she only wants to go to MC for closure. Nice huh? Keep strong with your sitch maynard and I'll do the same with mine.

Sandi, ok, I've calmed down today. I did the exact opposite today from my old habits. I didn't get depressed but instead I went to the house and spent the afternoon continuing to paint, etc. I did a lot of thinking about my sitch today. I was dissapointed with my intial reaction yesterday to have become upset by the letter from L. With everything that I've been through in the past with my company, a letter from a L shouldn't have bothered me the way this did. I know this is peronal though so I'll cut myself a little slack.

I am happy though that I did not contact my W until I gave myself 24 hours to calm down and think normally. I did some soul searching today and thought about what I really want. It is crystal clear to me that I want to save my M and want my W back. I cannot/will not let bumps along the way deter my from continuing to pursue my goal of saving my M with my W. I will be a strong man during this and show my W a strong man no matter what she throws at me. I think she will be surprised, make that shocked, by my changed reactions to what I would have done in the past. I thought to myself today, why would I allow this letter change my goal? The way my W feels today is not necessarily the way she will feel in the future.

Sandi, you are right that I took my W's recent friendliness as a sign of possible hope. I have to keep in mind this is a marathon and not a sprint. I must continue to be patient. I still believe that my W's friendlier demeanor is a positive thing. The more comfortable she becomes the better the chance for things between us to improve. Yes, I know that she is still on her path to wanting a D but I'm not giving up.

Today was a significant day for me as I did a 180 from breaking my depression of dealing with things like this in the past. Ok, yes, I vented yesterday but I didn't do it in front of my W. I continued today to keep moving forward with what I need to do. I will continue to do the right thing.

Still have not heard from my W. I'm sure she is still worried about contacting me now that she knows I received the letter. When she does contact me (I will wait to hear from her), she will she a strong, confident man. I will not even mention the letter. I will be upbeat and friendly towards her and continue to try and build on her increased sense of being more comfortable around me. I will still keep my stance on what I will and will not agree with her on certain issues. I will not be a pushover but will do what is right.

I've read so many sitch's that have gone to being almost D but have saved their M. So I have strengthened my resolve to continue to fight for my M and for my W.

[sandi2]

It is fine to vent. Better to do it here than to your W and have a backslide. If it's okay, I'll vent a bit myself.

I thought how ironic it was when you were asking why the LBS had to do all the changing, etc. Just as you see a stitch from the LBH's POV, I can see a stitch from the WAW's side. At times, I get really fed up at some of the absolutely horrible things people say about WAW's. I mean when they refer to us like we were murderers or rapists. I'm the first to say that some WAS are really, really bad.......but some of them were treated so badly for so many years and was looking for an escape. Perhaps they make some very poor decisions, but I am startled at the pure hatefulness & spite that some people can show here on this board. (Not you. I'm just venting also.) I mean, they don't even know the person or the full story and start in with the bitter-filled posts. So, yeah.....that is kind of hard for me to hear at times. But, I have to remind myself that that poster was hurt by a WAS and is still bitter. It sure shows. Don't let that happen to you, okay?

So, it depends on which side of the fence one stands. BTW, there is a forum here on the board about "Why Should I Be the One to Change?"

The WAW "does" have much to change, but she is not trying to improve herself in the sense you are working to improve yourself. She has a different goal than you do.....and that makes a huge difference. If she reconcilles with you, then she may make changes, but it will probably be in slow baby-steps. She would be working more at trying to "return" than changing.

Even though we tell you to improve yourself for "you", you still have reconciling as your objective. That's just normal. But, when you do not see her respond (the way you think she should) to your changes, you become disappointed and think you might as well give up. But if you were changing your habits or behavior just to please her or get her back..... then you would change back into your old ways as soon as she returned. Right now you don't think you would. If only she would come back you would do anything she wanted. But, it would not last......b/c it would have been a ploy to draw her back into the M and not a life-changing behavior. That is why you need to do these things so you will be happy about yourself......not just for her.

I felt you were placing too much on the fact she went to see you alone and b/c she was nice. Why do men do that? I think that was behind you getting so angry at the papers coming this week is b/c you felt you were painting the house.....not to "sell" but for the two of you to move back into it. Your hopes were rising and then wham......the papers arrived and you want to blame her for allowing the L to mail them just as you were painting and she was being nice.

[jasper67]

Im glad that you've taken some time to calm down and not act out of emotion. That is def key in all sitches.

As for knowing the issues of the M, I'm sure you have a pretty good idea...the point is that you truly want and deserve something better now.

Keep w/ the PMA and doing what needs to be done around the house.

Allen wrote in another sitch the effercts of lovingly detching and gave a timeframe of 6 months to a year to get WAW to have more balanced feelings. ANY backslide or moment of emotion positive or negative can potentially derail your progress...

Hang in there and thanks for checking in on my sitch and for the good wishes

[mza8]

Sandi, glad you were able to vent too. Sometimes it feels good to vent. I completely understand when you say some people seem to vilianize WAWs. I'm sure the fact that they have been hurt has a lot to do with it. I don't/won't do that with my W. I do try to see things through her POV. I do the best I can with this as she hasn't shared her specific reasons for wanting a D. I know some of the issues which I believe are job related and feeling like I won't change. I can understand that but I don't agree. I have changed, for me. Sure, I hope that one day this makes a difference to my W. If I didn't make these changes then I definitely wouldn't have a chance of any hope of reconciliation.

I will check out the "Why Should I Be The One To Change" section. When I said that I don't see my W changing I am concerned because she will be stuck for the rest of her life unless she improves herself too. She continues the same behavior that contributed to where we are now...poor communication, buries head in the sand with problems, expects me to take care of everything, becomes confrontational when I disagree with her. I agree with my W that we are in different places. In some ways she is in a better place and in some ways I am in a better place. I really believe that her IC is not doing a good job with her. If she has been in IC for the past 4 months then I am surprised by her lack of improvement. By that I don't mean that she changes her mind about D but instead that she still seems very immature and continues to display the same insecurities. I am concerned that no matter how much I changed or how long I show her consistent change, that we will have no chance of reconciliation unless she improves her issues. She is so defensive.

I'll continue to keep up my changes and improve in other areas. Still have some work left to do but I'm working on it. Thanks again Sandi for keeping me focused.

Maynard, yes, calming down before making any decision or having any conversation with W is key. Even though W still wants D, I think that fact that she has been friendlier is a positive thing that hopefully I can build on. I need to keep this small step of momentum going. I really need to continue to remain calm with her so I avoid any backslide. Time is on my side. Where can I find Allen's sitch? I'd be interested in reading his sitch too. I know it will take my W a long time to come around if she ever does. I'm willing to hang in there. Thank you!

[mza8]

Update...

Talked to my W yesterday when we were both at the house. We started off by talking about selling the house, and what realtor to use. We didn't agree on who to use and then my W started to get upset and we began to argue. I tried to keep it calm. She then tried to argue about other things (car, other things) and was trying to push my buttons. I did get a bit upset with her because I thought she was being unreasonable. Then she got even more angry and said the conversation was over and if i wanted to talk to her then I should contact her attorney. She got in her car in the garage and was going to leave. I went out and tried to calm her down and we talked for an hour.

She finally began to open up to me about the M. She told me that she had questioned her staying in the M for the past 3-4 years. In the past she has told me it was less than one year and another time she told me two years so who knows which of these three is true. She told me again how she wasn't sure even before we were married if I was a motivated person...speaking about job again. She told me that she wants to challenge herself and wants to be with someone who challenges her. I asked her why she didn't tell me some of this earlier in the M and she said that if she did the M might have been over years ago. Asked her if she had any feelings for me anymore and she said that we had some great memories together but she didn't answer the question. I know I shouldn't have even asked that question because I doubt she would give me an honest answer.

She kept telling me that she didn't want to give me any hope and that I needed to let her go. She said this is very painful and emotional for her right now especially dealing with the house, car, division of things. She told me again how I have talked her into things in the past and she didn't want me to talk her into anything now. We talked about our meeting two weeks ago and some of our recent conversations since then. I told her that I don't think we are comminicating well at all and that's a big reason that we are where we are today and she nodded her head in agreement. I said that we are pushing each others buttons and she laughed and again nodded her head in agreement. A couple of times during the conversation she said again how it's too late. I told her that I don't believe it's too late but I know this is where she is today but not necessarily will be in the future. At first she told me that she doesn't know what will happen in the future but for now I had to let her go. Later in the conversation she would be more firm about her position and say that she doesn't want to reconcile. So she sort of said two different things.

We talked about some of our issues. I listened and validated, remained calm. She slowly began to open up. She said a couple of interesting things. All of this time I had questioned how she would be able to see any of my changes since we are separated but it seems that she is looking for changes. For example, I mentoned that I would like for us to go to counseling together and she said that I wanted everything but I wasn't willing to give her anything. She said that I want it my way with the house, car, etc. and now I am wanting for us to go to counseling but I that I am unwilling to do anything for her by agreeing on the house, car, etc. She said that I hadn't changed. Wow, she is paying attention. I thought for a minute and validated and said she was right. I told her that I'll work with her better on these issues. I asked her again to think about going to counseling together and she agreed to think about it. She told me again that she did't want to go for reconciliation. I told her that I didn't want either of us to go with any agenda. I didn't want to go for the purpose of reconciliation and I didn't want her to go for the purpose of closure. I told her I would like us to go just to be able to learn how to communicate better because I beleive that is one of the main reasons we are where we are today (she nodded in agreement). She didn't say no to this and again said she will think about it.

We agreed to tslk again tomorrow about the house. I will be prepared to make a decision so we can put it for sale and get this behind us.

So now I'm questioning if this was a good conversation or not? Did it improve the situation or not? In talking to my DB coach she said it is normal for the WAW not to want to give any hope, my W is doing this. DB coach said things can change if the dynamic changes. Said to try to regain trust with my W. Said to become friendly again with my W. Said that it will take time for W's feelings to change.

I don't know if I should have gotten into the R talk or not with W yesterday but I felt like it was time. I also feel like it's time to try to get us into counseling together. I was probably controlling when I told her how we should approach counseling but I wanted to see if I could get her to not focus so much on going for closure and instead be more open to go to discuss better communication. I also mentioned Retrouville again to her and said that perhaps it would be something we could consider in the future. She didn't say anything. After reading TBL's thread and experience with Retrouville it seems like it was a good experience for him and his W. I asked my W if she was in counseling and she said that she is seeing a counselor. My W asked me why I wanted to go to a different counselor other than hers or mine. I told her that I think it would be best to go to a counselor who is neutral. The new counselor I have in mind for us to see is highly recommended and is very pro M.

So what do I do now? It's obvious that the house, car, etc. is a huge stress for my W and I need to get those things behind us asap. I have wanted to but my W has been slow to contact me about them. I was ok with the conversation except I was hurt by her one comment that she wants to be with someone who challenges her. I don't get that one? I think my W has this fantasy about life. This seems like a typical thought for someone in MLC. I told her not to think that the man I was for the last couple of years is the true me. I talked about my depression again and that I didn't want to be that person either. I talked about love and how it changes over time in a M. Told her that I believe everyone deserves a second chance at least once. I probably shouldn't have mentioned some of these things but I wanted to make sure I put these thoughts into her hesd.

I think I am at a point where the next steps I take are very important. I think my W and I are at a transition now where we are finally starting to talk. Yes, she still says she wants a D but I know from reading other sitch's that this can change. The good thing for my sitch is neither of us are involved with anyone else. I think some of the DB solutions apply in my sitch and some do not. I'm not so sure that tough love applies here. I think trying to take away some of the stress and emotion is key right now. I think it's time for counseling. I need professional help with my W right now. I'm not always sure how to respond to some of the things she says and I don't want to make matters worse, I want to improve things. I feel like meeting with a counselor will help us stay focused on talking about certain things without drifting off into an arguement. I'm hoping the counselor keeps both of us focused in the discussion.

I would be happy to hear any and all suggestions on what to do next. W and I wer able to laugh and I got her to smile at certain times during the oncversation. It was nice to see her smile.

Sandi, what now?

[Steve McQueen]

So now I'm questioning if this was a good conversation or not? Did it improve the situation or not?

This was an excellent conversation and the take away message was:

She kept telling me that she didn't want to give me any hope and that I needed to let her go.

Now the important thing is, you need to start listening to her and give her what she wants. The fact that you do not really listen to her and oblige her examplifies your selfishness. You do not care how she feels or what she desires. You are putting your wants and needs above hers. From what your woman has been telling you, I cant see her wanting any of that. But not only that, your behavior solidiflies the idea in her mind that you are needy, insecure and lack confidence in yourself.

Do you really feel that your wife is attracted to needy, insecure, unconfident men, who would beg a woman to stay or even reconsider? How could you begin to imagine your wife could find any sexual attraction in that behavior? And if she is not sexually attracted, why would she even want to reconsider? Life is good now that she is on her own and separated.


The second take away message:

I was ok with the conversation except I was hurt by her one comment that she wants to be with someone who challenges her.

This is important. And once again she told you exactly what she wants. Are you a challenge when you beg for a second chance? NOPE.

A challenge would be a man who is unavailable, to busy to persue, confident and has several woman calling him asking him out on a date. How could your wife complete against that? That would be a challenge. Would she shave? Would she buy expensive lingerie expecting it to be ripped off? Would she make sure it was dirty, in the car, public restroom, get caught? The challenge here is obtaining something she can't have and the fantasy and desire to obtain it. It is work and the work boosts her ego.

You are not making this work for her. You are making it incredibly draining on her. Dragging her back in to spend an hour of listening to you talk about a failing relationship. YUCKY.

If you cant make this a challenge for her, then you might as well find yourself someone who finds needy, codependent men attractive. Because, sir, this has nothing to do with history or deep spiritual love. It is all about Lust. Lust for life, Lust for sex, Lust for the unobtainable.

Make yourself unobtainable.

[sandi2]

I do not agree with pursuing R talks b/c somebody is going to get emotionally upset, usually. Do you really think anything came from that talk? I personally feel that both of you were BSing her when you said you wouldn't go to C with thinking about reconsiliation and she wouldn't go with closure. You "know" you'll be hoping and looking for reconciliation! And....all she can talk about is you letting her go, so yeah, she's thinking about closure. Don't you think you were trying to force her into agreeing to go? You probably don't see it as "force" but it is a form of controlling. You just want it so badly that you can't see what you are doing. It's pressure to her and she may agree just to get you off her back, but that doesn't mean she'll really go. Please take my word for it, a WAW hates pressure like that.

As for the next step, well you are putting the house up for sell and spliting the furniture so it seems a S is coming. I think if you would back off and leave her alone, that would probably do more than pressing her to go to C.

If my H would have told me that he thought we should S, instead of him pursuing me, then it would have shocked the mess out of me. I think it would have made me do a 180 and perhaps even snapped me out of my EA (I guess I won't ever know). If you were to act like you were fine with the S and even told her that you had thought it over and decided she was right and that you decided you wanted a chance at another life.....I bet it would cause her to sit up and take notice. As long as you continue to hold back hard on that rope you have tied to her, she is going to resist and that just causes a tug-of-war. If she thinks you want to be free of her.....that's a different story!

[mza8]

Sandi, I'm not sure if anything came from the talk. I know you probably think that nothing did but I'm not sure. At least it was the first time that my W started to open up with her feelings and why she left. At least she is finally beginning to feel more comfortable talking about it.

Yes, I know deep inside I want to go to C for reconciliation. Perhpas you are correct and my W would still want to go for closure. What do I do here? She has been wanting to go for closure and I have resisted. Should we go to C now or wait? My concern is that if I just leave her alone that she will continue to grow distant and be more comfortable with ending the M. I feel like perhaps now is the time to explore C with her so as to try to begin communicating. I just don't know what the right thing to do now? I know that it was controlling of me to ask her to C for my reasons. I'm trying not to be pressuring but also trying to see what works.

My W and I already are S as she left last October. Do you think my agreeing that this S is the right thing will have any effect on my W? I don't know, it seems as though it would make my W feel I am finally giving in to her. I think it would be a relief to her. When we met two weeks ago and I told her that I was moving on with my life she said, "that's good". So again, it seems like it would matter to her right now or would it?

I question how much of what she says right now is typical WAW script. I'm not belittling her but I am trying to figure out if what she tells me is a defense mechanism or not? I question if what she is telling me is absolutely is what she wants and is final or if things could change? Sometimes I think my W is very different from some of the WAWs I have read about on her and sometimes she does things that make me think she is very typical of other WAWs. Very, very confusing to know what is the right thing to do right now. I'm trying to take away the stress of the house and other things by takking care of those things now. I don't think she can begin to think clearly or be open to anything with M until some of those financial things are finished.

My W also said something interesting to me. She said that her leaving wasn't all about the financial stresses of the past two years. Hmmm... Then she talked about how when she went to counseling by herself two years ago she told her counselor that she thought I was depressed and wanted me to go to counseling but she couldn't get me to go. Her counselor told her that she couldn't force me. Again, more of my W opening up. We talked more and I said how I would stand up in my counselors office and pretend to scream how frusted I was that my W was not in reality of how we needed to pay our bills and take care of things. That I thought my W was in a fantasy world since she left and wasn't focused on what we needed to take care of, serious issues. My W then said to me, "now you know how I felt for the past two years." I was quiet for a minute and then told me W that she was right and I didn't see it. I validated and said I was sorry for being that person and making her feel that way for so long.

This is some of the reason that I wonder if now is the right time for counseling for us. She is just starting to opem up to me about some deeper feelings. I would love to get her to go to Retrouville with me but I don't think that will happen right now. So in the meantime I wonder if trying to get her to C is the right thing to do?

Just when I feel like I have a plan things get confusing. Right now I feel like all I can do is either try for the C or leave her alone. Sigh...

[sandi2]

Perhpas you are correct and my W would still want to go for closure. What do I do here? She has been wanting to go for closure and I have resisted. Should we go to C now or wait?

Okay, this is how I see it. She is wanting closure as much as you want reconciliation. Unless you happen to get an extremly well educated pro-marriage counselor, it will do you no good to go. I have read dozens of threads where the LBH pressured his WAW to attend only to discover it was a session to bash him and WAW give all the reasons to D. Too many C support D as being the answer to an unhappy life.

She isn't wanting to go to help the M and if she's planning to D you, why would she care about learning how to communicate with you "now"? Do you see what I'm saying? It is your desparate way of trying to control this situation and find a "fixer" before she D you.

My W and I already are S as she left last October. Do you think my agreeing that this S is the right thing will have any effect on my W? I don't know, it seems as though it would make my W feel I am finally giving in to her. I think it would be a relief to her.

It's been about five months, so the S has happened whether you agree with it or not. I think if you had agreed to the S in the beginning it would have been more effective, but if you keep fighting her the way you are now.....it is just pushing her into D court faster. Look at your next sentence and tell me what that really says: "it seems as though it would make my W feel I am finally giving in to her. I think it would be a relief to her."

Let me ask a question that may be hard for you to answer. Do you really love her? Do you love her enough to see her have what she wants? Love is a very unselfish thing. Wanting her to come home and stay in the M is what you want, but you are "afraid" to give her what she wants. She wants to be free of you. The more you pressure her, the more she pulls away from you, but you still won't let go. Do you really love her enough to set her free or are you thinking about how much you hurt?

When we met two weeks ago and I told her that I was moving on with my life she said, "that's good". So again, it seems like it would matter to her right now or would it?

B/c she could see right through you and she knew it was just a ploy to try to make her want to go back home. Then you proved her right by pressing the C thing on her. If you were going to move on with your life, you would not be chasing her to the car and talking about the R and pressing about better communication, etc. Which I think the communication was something you used to try to get her to C, and I bet she saw through that too. Your desparation is showing very much.

My W then said to me, "now you know how I felt for the past two years."

I think all the "opening up" was really her way of trying to tell you that you have seen a tiny bit of how she's felt and now she feels like it's too late. I did not see this as a positive conversation but one where she was tired of you pushing and when she says anything, you hear what you want to hear and not what she is truly saying. You are doing what so many men do......you are trying to wear her down to the point she will give up! That is not sucessful DBing and it won't work with her.

You need to stop trying to figure her out as a WAW and just look at where you are, what she wants, and love her enough to stop fighting her. Men seem to think that fighting for the M means to fight against the W and that's not exactly how to do it.

I would love to get her to go to Retrouville with me but I don't think that will happen right now. So in the meantime I wonder if trying to get her to C is the right thing to do?

I think if you would back away and let her breathe that would be the best thing....instead of trying to get her to agree to go to C or to a marrage retreat. She doesn't want those things right now. If you were to leave her alone, then she may reach that place but she just wants out from under the stress you are causing in her life. If you are not there as the source of the stress, then she may be able to look at something else and see it as a problem.....but right now "you" are the source of all her problems.