WAW Using God II

[Greek]

I know what you mean. If my wife and I didn't have kids, would I put myself through all of this? I don't know. I love her and think marriage is a lifetime commitment, but if it was just she and I.......
The kids are innocent and have done nothing to deserve this, and no matter how hard we try, if it comes down to a divorce, I will feel like I let them down and failed them.

How can the WAW seem like they have no concern for the kids? I don't know if I'll ever understand that one. I know they don't like us anymore, but come on.

You just all but said you may not like her enough to stay with her if there were not kids. Gee, you think she picked up on that at some point?
Greek

[25yearsmlc]

Well what a difference a day makes.

W asked to come over to chat tonight. Said after a long period of thought about yesterday's conversation, she had a revelation of self awareness in that she is coming to grips with and becoming comfortable with moving on. Said what could be signs from God, such as a song she heard on the radio shortly after her "A-HA" moment, as well as immediate relief from stress related abdominal pain, even her horoscope, pointed to Him being in agreement. She said she knows she could be wrong about those, but it seemed strange that there would be such coincidences.

Basically told me she doesn't know what is really missing in our relationship to be able to put it into words, she just knows that "it" is not there. She knows "it" when she sees "it" and knows that "it" is "out there". I guess in other men.

She said if she came back she could see this happening to her again with someone else.

It was a long talk, mainly me saying that I completely understood where she stood and that I was clear on her feelings, and that I really had not seen anything different in that area since this all started.

I just asked her what she thought the definition of faith was, and asked if she trusted God. She said she has faith but doesn't know if she trusts Him yet. I was just trying to get her to consider that doing what God prescribes with regards to marriage would require both faith and trust in Him. If she didn't trust Him to take care of her if she came back to me, then I get where she could see that getting out was really all that would make sense to her.

I told her that I have faith and trust in God, and that I truly believe that no matter how far gone she seems now, that somehow, some way, at some point God is going to surprise her. And at that point she will see things differently. I said I don't like what it is putting me through, but that God requires me to be patient and that is what I'm doing.


Why not fight for her? (And yes I did read your past posts)

She understood. I think she felt a little frustrated in that she seems to want to get a cooperative move on in getting a divorce.

OR she wants you to fight for her! At least passionately make your case, rather than validating how she feels and sounding wishy washy as if it "kinda bothers you that she's walking out but hey, if that's how she feels...".what can you possibly do? Oh How about a lot!!
I told her I think that would be a mistake, but that she is free to make that decision.



We've had this conversation before; most of her points seemed just like the ones she made when dropping the bomb almost a year ago. It was just strange to see her flip flop from saying "You should have fought for me" just yesterday, and today saying she is now completely at peace with going against God's law and what everyone else is telling her.

this is not a flip flop to me. It's another tactic to wake you up. You sound like a calm easy going and "who gives a damn if she leaves" type of guy when she craves passion and desire from her mate. I could be wrong of course and I know you're not intentionally blowing me off but man I just think you are misreading and mishandling this for so long...I mean if she's NOT testing you then she's wishy washy and a tad unstable and I'd have to ask why you wnat to be m but then I think maybe you want to avoid the work she and ANY woman will need from you....why not do it for the mother of your children if you're going to eventually try with someone?


I expected to hear what I heard tonight, and I think I gave her some things to really think about. She initiated a hug before leaving, crying and saying "I'm sorry". I just told her don't be, you can't help what you feel.

OMG ....can't believe you said that....

She said she'd give up anything to feel differently with the exception of our kids. I just told her to be open to surprises and not to close off her heart.

So are you going to surprise her or what? Just hope she wakes up one day and FEELS differently??


So I guess I'm back to where I was 2 days ago. Yippee. I still trust God, despite this setback, but man its so tough. And I'd be lying if I said it didn't hurt.

Sorry you are hurting. But take into consideration what's written here and see if any of it makes sense. Put your pride and ego aside (not your self respect) and open your heart to His will and see what he would like for you to DO...
j-

[pigskin]

Well what a difference a day makes.

W asked to come over to chat tonight. Said after a long period of thought about yesterday's conversation, she had a revelation of self awareness in that she is coming to grips with and becoming comfortable with moving on. Said what could be signs from God, such as a song she heard on the radio shortly after her "A-HA" moment, as well as immediate relief from stress related abdominal pain, even her horoscope, pointed to Him being in agreement. She said she knows she could be wrong about those, but it seemed strange that there would be such coincidences.

Basically told me she doesn't know what is really missing in our relationship to be able to put it into words, she just knows that "it" is not there. She knows "it" when she sees "it" and knows that "it" is "out there". I guess in other men.

She said if she came back she could see this happening to her again with someone else.

It was a long talk, mainly me saying that I completely understood where she stood and that I was clear on her feelings, and that I really had not seen anything different in that area since this all started.

I just asked her what she thought the definition of faith was, and asked if she trusted God. She said she has faith but doesn't know if she trusts Him yet. I was just trying to get her to consider that doing what God prescribes with regards to marriage would require both faith and trust in Him. If she didn't trust Him to take care of her if she came back to me, then I get where she could see that getting out was really all that would make sense to her.

I told her that I have faith and trust in God, and that I truly believe that no matter how far gone she seems now, that somehow, some way, at some point God is going to surprise her. And at that point she will see things differently. I said I don't like what it is putting me through, but that God requires me to be patient and that is what I'm doing.


Why not fight for her? (And yes I did read your past posts)

She understood. I think she felt a little frustrated in that she seems to want to get a cooperative move on in getting a divorce.

OR she wants you to fight for her! At least passionately make your case, rather than validating how she feels and sounding wishy washy as if it "kinda bothers you that she's walking out but hey, if that's how she feels...".what can you possibly do? Oh How about a lot!!
I told her I think that would be a mistake, but that she is free to make that decision.



We've had this conversation before; most of her points seemed just like the ones she made when dropping the bomb almost a year ago. It was just strange to see her flip flop from saying "You should have fought for me" just yesterday, and today saying she is now completely at peace with going against God's law and what everyone else is telling her.

this is not a flip flop to me. It's another tactic to wake you up. You sound like a calm easy going and "who gives a damn if she leaves" type of guy when she craves passion and desire from her mate. I could be wrong of course and I know you're not intentionally blowing me off but man I just think you are misreading and mishandling this for so long...I mean if she's NOT testing you then she's wishy washy and a tad unstable and I'd have to ask why you wnat to be m but then I think maybe you want to avoid the work she and ANY woman will need from you....why not do it for the mother of your children if you're going to eventually try with someone?


I expected to hear what I heard tonight, and I think I gave her some things to really think about. She initiated a hug before leaving, crying and saying "I'm sorry". I just told her don't be, you can't help what you feel.

OMG ....can't believe you said that....

She said she'd give up anything to feel differently with the exception of our kids. I just told her to be open to surprises and not to close off her heart.

So are you going to surprise her or what? Just hope she wakes up one day and FEELS differently??


So I guess I'm back to where I was 2 days ago. Yippee. I still trust God, despite this setback, but man its so tough. And I'd be lying if I said it didn't hurt.

Sorry you are hurting. But take into consideration what's written here and see if any of it makes sense. Put your pride and ego aside (not your self respect) and open your heart to His will and see what he would like for you to DO...
j-

I appreciate the comments 25, and you did hit the nail on the head with regard to my personality - very calm and easygoing. I can be opinionated and passionate in debate, which was a turn off for my W.

If you read my prior thread then you know I tried a lot of things to fight for her, but they did not work. The only difference now is that supposedly the OM is out of the picture. Tactics of pursuit obviously go against the DB principles, and that is what I'd have to use to fight for her, do you not agree?

I'm going to try a mixed approach of reaching out and pulling back and monitor what seems to work. I'm not going to let pride and ego get in my way, but I have to walk a fine line. If she responds positively, I'll keep it up.

I really don't think she's testing me with the flip flops. I think depression is wreaking havoc with her mind. I can handle that. I WANT to take care of her.

When I told her not to be sorry for her feelings, it was an acknowledgment of the fact that we can't help what we feel. That's one of the lessons of Retrouvaille. We CAN help how we act on those feelings, however. And we can make decisions that may change feelings.

[idontunderstand]

You are so right about feeling good and getting kicked in the gut. I am learning to condition myself for it.

I like the having a few beers analogy, it sometimes feels good just to vent, thanks.

Greek-I was just trying to say I am having an easier time detaching from W and working on myself. I'm not supposed to detach from my kids and I'm not, it makes it more difficult, and, with some things, easier. I love my wife, not the person that she is now. I hope she's in there somewhere and the kids make it easier to have some patience and try to find or wait on her to come back while making the necessary changes in myself to help her find her way. I'm not explaining it very well.....

[Coach]

you did hit the nail on the head with regard to my personality - very calm and easygoing. I can be opinionated and passionate in debate, which was a turn off for my W.

Do you understand why?

Tactics of pursuit obviously go against the DB principles, and that is what I'd have to use to fight for her, do you not agree?

Pursuit and standing up for your woman are not the same things. Pursuit makes you look needy, clingy and weak. Standing up for and fighting for your wife makes you look strong, in control and decisive.

I'm not going to let pride and ego get in my way,

is this one of the reasons you get so passionate in debate, someone disagrees with one of your beliefs?

I really don't think she's testing me with the flip flops.

Then you don't understand what your wife wants from you.

I WANT to take care of her.

She doesn't want to be taken care of (now you are Daddy in her mind.) She wants you to love her.


Find the "it" become attractive to her.

[pigskin]

you did hit the nail on the head with regard to my personality - very calm and easygoing. I can be opinionated and passionate in debate, which was a turn off for my W.



Do you understand why?

Yes, she feels like I am better than her at debating. She felt intimidated. I have definitely worked to get better at this so she is not intimidated to have a discussion.

Tactics of pursuit obviously go against the DB principles, and that is what I'd have to use to fight for her, do you not agree?


Pursuit and standing up for your woman are not the same things. Pursuit makes you look needy, clingy and weak. Standing up for and fighting for your wife makes you look strong, in control and decisive.

I think I grasp the subtlety there. The same action could be classified as pursuit or fighting depending on if it is delivered with neediness versus confidence and not worrying about the outcome?

I'm not going to let pride and ego get in my way,

is this one of the reasons you get so passionate in debate, someone disagrees with one of your beliefs?

No, I have no problem with disagreement. I just don't debate things that I haven't spent a lot of time thinking about and making sure that my position is sound and backed up by facts. When someone takes a contrary position I just like to try to convince them using the facts I drew my position from. Not trying to be an ass and saying "you're wrong, I'm right", just an enthusiasm for getting someone to see another side of things.

I really don't think she's testing me with the flip flops.

Then you don't understand what your wife wants from you.

I don't know what the "it" is that she speaks of. And she can't put it into words, so I don't know if I'll ever know unless I stumble across it.

I WANT to take care of her.



She doesn't want to be taken care of (now you are Daddy in her mind.) She wants you to love her.

Taking care of someone when they are sick is a sign of love, is it not? But I know what you are saying.

[/quote]
Find the "it" become attractive to her. [/quote]

That's my mission.

[25yearsmlc]

you did hit the nail on the head with regard to my personality - very calm and easygoing. I can be opinionated and passionate in debate, which was a turn off for my W.

Do you understand why?

Tactics of pursuit obviously go against the DB principles, and that is what I'd have to use to fight for her, do you not agree?

Pursuit and standing up for your woman are not the same things. Pursuit makes you look needy, clingy and weak. Standing up for and fighting for your wife makes you look strong, in control and decisive.

I'm not going to let pride and ego get in my way,

is this one of the reasons you get so passionate in debate, someone disagrees with one of your beliefs?

I really don't think she's testing me with the flip flops.

Then you don't understand what your wife wants from you.

I WANT to take care of her.

She doesn't want to be taken care of (now you are Daddy in her mind.) She wants you to love her.


Find the "it" become attractive to her.

What coach said...and DB does not say don't pursue IF that's what might be indicated. IT says do what works. When my h was deep into MLC he said at one point that he "needed to go to the place for the job of his life" and I asked if it mattered that our family weren't with him....and he said, "I'd PREFER if you came with me..." and boy did that say it all....to me, that was a slap in the face with his "hmm, guess it's a 51-49 choice"....(or maybe an 80-20??) but I was so turned off. I mean talk about making his priorities clear. If it came down to it, he'd choose his adventure job over us -- and he DID! HE left!

Was gone for 2 years and then hit a wall of depression and neediness and loneliness and realized, "OMG they didn't join me...where is everyone?" And it sank in that without us, the "JOB of a lifetime" meant very little. We had moved on, and there are tremendous repairs yet to be complete with my h and our d's, particularly our oldest d, whom he left while she was in high school.

I cannot tell you how much it still kills me that he did that. I'm not talking about not forgiving him; I have done so much work on that and feel it's mostly complete as a wife. But as a mother, seeing the damage he inflicted on her at such an important time in her life, still hurts. I feel sorry for him, and for her. I really do.

At Retrovaille he shared some grief with me that makes me realize he does get it, but fears that the damage is too great. What can I say? My point in all this is that when my h made that selfish crazy choice he didn't think it sounded the way it did to me. He felt he was saying "Come on!" But that's not what he said. I recall it verbatim, b/c it hurt so much. What I heard was, IN EFFECT, "come if you want, or don't...not that big a deal..."

I wonder if your wife hears that too. All this validation of her leaving you is pretty unromantic to me. As crazy as movies are, think about the best romantic films you've seen. I mean have you ever watched a woman trying to break up who doesn't really want to, and seen the leading man say "Well if that's how you FEEL....??? Um, gee, I can't think of a single woman who'd be "swept off her feet by that"...really... DO what works--obviously-- and know that if you want to "mix it up" you have to be careful you don't look inconsistent. B/c if it is some sort of test from her, you'll fail. She's looking for leadership, confidence in you that you two are meant to be b/c you want/love her and that takes time + consistent changes in you. So if you "flip flop" on her, you'll lose. We all know it's hard and it IS a fine line. But what I needed from my h when he wanted back in, was faith that he was sure he REALLY wanted back in and not because we were his back up or 2nd choice or a "little better than nothing"....I deserve to have passion and love in my life and know it's out there if not with my h. I mean, I had offers and what's good about that is that although there were some wacky guys out there, there are also many good men who would make fine partners. I don't "need" my h. But since he made the effort that I needed from him, we reconciled. We also got help in "piecing" and went to Retrovaille...so I get what you mean about feelings but your wife is letting her feelings determine what she DOES. And that's not alright. Shoot, there are times my kids are not so lovable. I still love them though. I don't leave them.

Make sense? Sorry if this sounds confusing. But I really liked Coach's advice. I read "Wild At Heart" also and it helped me understand my h's need for adventure and daring in his life in a way that didn't feel so threatening--though he left to find it--but I know men are different. And since I'm not one of you, it's great to get advice from someone who is.

j-

[pigskin]

Made a strong move in the fight for my wife today.

I showed up at her apartment, drew a heart in the snow, stood inside the heart, and threw a snowball at her window to get her attention. Hokey, corny, and maybe a bit over the top. But she's always commented on such things that others have done, saying "how come you never do that for me." I would usually roll my eyes. It is an absolute 180 for me, as I've rarely done anything like that for her. She waved and seemed confused as to why I was there, and I went to the door.

She welcomed me in, and I asked her "Did you see my heart?" as it was tough to make it out since the snow was a bit icy. She went to the window to look again, and when she turned back around, I took her in my arms and kissed her hard and lingered over it.

At the outset she seemed to gently try to deflect the kiss but then accepted it and drew me closer. We embraced silently for a long, long time.

I knew it struck a chord with her because I got the familiar exasperated whisper "Why now??"

I told her tomorrow is too late and I can't do a thing about the past. But I wanted to show her that I was serious about loving her. That I wasn't fighting for her because of a vow, a faith, or kids. I was fighting for her because of HER, and that I love her.

She had a meeting to go to so I simply told her goodbye and left to run some errands.

All in all it was a good encounter. She did not resist the embraces and seemed to really enjoy them. She was quiet and seemed to be deep in thought.

[Coach]

But I wanted to show her that I was serious about loving her. That I wasn't fighting for her because of a vow, a faith, or kids. I was fighting for her because of HER, and that I love her.

Did you tell her this? That is powerful. She wants to hear your words fighting for her - it will turn her on ("it"/attraction.) Saying that with no expectation will make her feel special.

[pigskin]

But I wanted to show her that I was serious about loving her. That I wasn't fighting for her because of a vow, a faith, or kids. I was fighting for her because of HER, and that I love her.

Did you tell her this? That is powerful. She wants to hear your words fighting for her - it will turn her on ("it"/attraction.) Saying that with no expectation will make her feel special.

I did. Don't know where it came from but I think it got to her as she went for a tissue shortly thereafter. It was a sincere feeling of mine; I'm not sitting here putting up with this pain because I took a vow or because I am Catholic or because I have kids. I wouldn't do it if I didn't love her.

I'm just glad the Good Lord gave me the eloquence when I needed it...