I am really sorry you've had to suffer through this twice; but everything happens for a reason, something I have always believed. I will not give any unsolicited advice to you; you know what you need to do, and I don't doubt you're doing that. I hope everything will finish out all right this last time. FWIW, I sent up a prayer for you and your husband.
Quote:
When people first come to this place, they have this overwhelming need to try to save their M and they cannot see beyond that. They look for people who have come through MLC with an intact M and they look for all of the answers from them. Like they have the “secret” answer.
You know, as well as I know, NO ONE has a "secret" answer nor does it have a "quick" solution. I didn't have a "magic pill" then, and I don't have one now. As you also, know, coming through intact in MLC regardless if the marriage does or not, depends upon many different things..the most important being free will/choice on the part of the LBS and the MLC'er..but I think that burden rests MOSTLY on the MLC'er if the LBS has decided to wait this out.
Quote:
The truth is, they were lucky. They learned and taught many of us others and their sitches turned around and others didn’t.
IMHO, this is how I see it: first of all, they developed an open mind, and in that process began the search for answers, second, getting what they had to do, and when they were ready, began to learn and put what they learned into action, and third, taught others what they learned as their situations began to turn around into one ending or another.
Some marriages come though, and some don't; but NO ONE fails. This is NOT a test where you score based on what you do. It is one of the biggest trials of your life; and however the outcome may come; you do NOT fail; you do the best you can with what knowledge you have and can attain, along with the understanding that comes at different phases of this.
I do NOT and will NOT ever see someone whose marriage ended in a divorce as a failure; there is NO such thing as a failure. The only time someone continues to fail is when they wallow in their misery and stay there; never coming forward, nor learning, nor healing. Understanding comes at different times for each person; and because someone doesn't get it right off the bat doesn't mean they won't or they're hopeless. I've worked with many who took quite a bit of time to "get it" and some never have, even yet. But that STILL doesn't mean they won't.
This journey is an INDIVIDUAL one, not a group one; nor is it one that you take WITH your spouse, but separate.
There are MANY truths that have to be faced while taking this journey to find yourself.
Quote:
One thing I have been very concerned with lately, especially since you returned to the board, answering things very differently from the way you used to answer them....
Curious question here: Did you really expect me to remain the same person I used to be? I HAVE changed a great deal, and have seen that more clearly since I returned to the board for this period of time. I'm sorry if I have disappointed you. I don't know who's more surprised, me or you. I'm being honest, not sarcastic, in case my statements are taken that way. I seriously would NOT hurt anyone for anything; and that is not my intention now.
Quote:
So telling them that their love for their S will end, which you have done, really bothered me. Yes that may be how it was explained to you and that may have been necessary for your journey and your understanding but I worry about the message it sends to others...
I never saw it as "sending a message" I thought I was sharing of myself and what I've learned. I also realize I never have to share anything of myself, if I don't choose to; yet, when I do that, I open myself up to all kinds of things. I don't take anything personally; though, I haven't for a number of years.
I actually did post something to this effect when I was here before, about one of the possible endings of the MLC/Divorce; LBS very possibly moving to a point where they do NOT love the MLC'er anymore, though they will always have feelings for them; and I remember getting flamed for it...as it didn't represent "hope" as anyone saw it.
But, as I knew then and know now, one of the MANY aspects of the LBS journey is facing ALL possiblities, even if they do NOT happen. That is REALITY, not something I made up.
Also, we have to face the fact that we will change as a result of all this. And FEELINGS may change, and that is OK if they do. People feel guilt, mostly, because they think they are NOT supposed to change what they feel..but that's NOT true. They suffer "self condemnation", until they realize that going through these feelings is very NORMAL. They must be worked though, and come to terms with during the journey, but no one needs to be condemned for them; and I would be the last one to do that.
I know it to be true, regarding myself, as I WAS THERE at one point in time, experienced a few things I didn't like at all, had to face reality, no holds barred, concerning things about me, my life AND yes, my marriage. A mirror was thrown up in self-reflection; only then was I able to pin point MY problems and fix them. I reached the realization during this journey of mine that I would be fine REGARDLESS of whether my marriage made it or not. Other people CAN reach this realization, as well. Others have reached this; I wasn't alone in that.
Marriages end within MLC, some are rebuilt, some end; new beginnings are created; and with them, new feelings regarding ourselves and the LBS will gain a sense of "starting over", regardless of what happens. In a sense, the LBS comes to an Acceptance of sorts; not much different than the MLC'er does.
The marriage AND life as you saw it ended the day you discovered the MLC'er went into the tunnel. And it's an opportunity(if you will come to see it that way) to discover what YOU want out of your life.
Those things aren't seen until later on, as the journey is taken, many things are seen/discovered about yourself, and your life.
I, too, have talked to many divorced people over time; and it was a mixed bag of differing opinions/endings/new beginnings, no one right and no one wrong. Each one of these people were very successful people; and I wouldn't say otherwise.
IMHO, it is best to be prepared for ALL things, not just SOME things. The more knowledge you gain, the better off you are, as knowledge is power. Power, to make decisions that would work best for YOU as individual.
As this is an individual path, so are the decisions made as an individual, and at an individual level.
No one needs to try and "fit" their situation into mine or anyone else's; each outcome is very different as the individuals within each marriage is different.
It has been said again and again and again, that what works for one does NOT work for another.
As each individual is different, each journey is different We may get help from each other, but we cannot walk this FOR each other.
Remember, as each person is different, every MLC/Transition is different..what works for one may not work for another. Most of the time it is trial and error for ALL involved.
Thanks, Flowmom, I'm doing my best. You're doing fine; remember your journey is on YOUR timetable, now, not his. As long as you focus on yourself, you'll continue to grow and change. Also remember things will be fine NO matter what happens; even if it doesn't look like it now.
Quote:
About a week after he moved out, I asked (for the second time) if there was on OW involved in our sitch. With a bitter tone of voice, he replied "I wish. It would make this a lot easier for me". I believe that he said that truthfully and impulsively. But of course he could have been lying. Also, about 2 weeks ago he mentioned a hypothetical scenario of him dating but clarified that he wasn't yet. I'm assuming that he will be in a sexual relationship soon, if not already.
He was actually lying to hurt you for asking him that, but on the other hand, unless an opportunity presents itself, it is unlikely he might fall in that pit. I'm really hoping he doesn't do the dating thing; as he doesn't realize it's dangerous not only to himself, but damaging to you, as well.
No matter what you've faced in the past, OW HURTS really bad; and it brings up feelings within you that you'd rather not have; and it would complicate an already complicated situation.
Quote:
H doesn't drink or do drugs. He has used relationship/sex melodrama in an addictive way to deal with pain and grief before though. He did come to understand this about himself so it will be interesting to see if he goes there again (if he hasn't already).
Again, let's hope not; as I remember it, though; sexual temptation is one of the "tests" the MLC'er can face. It is possible to "go back" to an old addiction that was kicked before; that is why I mentioned the drugs, alcohol, etc.
My husband failed his in two ways..Pornography and the OW he had during that time. He'd had an addiction to Porn when we first married, and it resurfaced during his MLC. You're hanging tough and that says a great deal for you.
I keep drawing from memories; and hope this helps.
Hang in there, Flowmom, one day at a time. When this will pass, I don't know, but eventually, it will.
Take care and keep me posted.
Remember, as each person is different, every MLC/Transition is different..what works for one may not work for another. Most of the time it is trial and error for ALL involved.
My goodness, CW; this looks like a pattern of a sort.
It is possible from what you're describing that he has tried to go in several times, and ended up "running back out" without completing the journey/crisis, and this last time was when it overran or overwhelmed him; forcing him in.
There is no telling. I know a major life change can cause them to go in; such as death, losing a job, something major that affected him.
Food for thought, here:
Some people start in, then back off, due to pressures of their spouses, and themselves fighting the change, managing to put it "on hold" for an indefinite amount of time and other circumstances that can contribute to not going properly through. But, there comes a time when it will NOT be denied, and it catches up with them; this emotional change will NOT back off, it demands to be dealt with. There are also some that go through, don't learn, and recycle, dragging their spouses with them each time they do.
It comes for all between the ages of 35 and 55, sometimes a little earlier, sometimes a little later.
It is helpful to know when, just so you will know for yourself....I had a need for understanding as many aspects of this as I could when I was writing all the 'books', and I included many different things.
Nothing really jumps out at me as the "beginning"..looks more like the pattern I outlined above about hopping in and out, until it catches them..
The journey you need to take to find yourself, is STILL important to you; as well. Do what you can to get the focus off of where he is and get it on YOU; when he set you on this path..he made this not only about him, but also about YOU.
Leave me your link, if you think about it, CW, so I can find you; You two, Flowmom, if you read this.
Keep me posted.
Remember, as each person is different, every MLC/Transition is different..what works for one may not work for another. Most of the time it is trial and error for ALL involved.
remember your journey is on YOUR timetable, now, not his. As long as you focus on yourself, you'll continue to grow and change. Also remember things will be fine NO matter what happens; even if it doesn't look like it now.
Those are good words for me. My anxiety is higher in the past few days so that points me back to working on my own growth. I've hated the idea that H is calling all the shots here, so I love what you wrote (esp the words in green). I will bring myself back to those words when I'm feeling bashed around by H's choices.
By the way, the link to my current thread is in the signature line of my posts
Thanks for helping me understand.
me: 42 | STBXH: 41 | T: 18 | M: 10 | separation: Jan 3, 2010 | they deserve better: S7 & D4 current thread: http://tinyurl.com/3y8sxcp .: first breathe, then heal, then start LIVING :.
I'm SO sorry, Trusting; I do NOT know how I missed this one, but I did. I was reading back through the thread to see if I'd missed anything, and found your post.
Here's your answer, and again, I'm sorry.
Quote:
HB, Could you give us insight as to your interpretation of what life is with the ML'er and OW, is it typically argumentive, blissful,hell, competitive, etc...?
Could be ALL of the above, depending on who is dealing with who, Trusting. There is a couple I know; who split up, and the Midlife man went on and married his OW. He is a friend of my husband's, and has been for the past 22 years.
He went into the tunnel in 1997; and has been there ever since. He married his OW in 2007 or 2008..it may have been earlier than that.
This has to be the oddest marriage I have ever seen. The OW, who is no longer the OW, will NOT allow her husband to raise any cain, will NOT listen to it..and has directed him to call MY husband if he's got any complaints. She, on the other hand, is constantly complaining about how his ex-wife is "screwing" them both..and now remember he is suffering consequences for his actions THROUGH his former LBS. Everything the former LBS is supposed to be doing to them is legal tactics; and she has a RIGHT...but this present wife doesn't think so. The former LBS, at one point, got after him for sticking HER with the tax bill for the last year they were married. The IRS couldn't find him, so they got her, and threatened to put a lien on her house. She paid the tax bill, but she has never let him forget that.
They DO fight quite a bit, and most of the time do not care who's present when they fight. They fight over stupid stuff and at the drop of a hat. Both of them want it to be all fun and games, but life gets in the way, as it always does, and they fight. I've begun to think they're not happy unless they are fighting about SOMETHING. It is stormy most of the time with them.
From what I have observed, they live their lives as teenagers, dressing like kids, acting like kids; he is around 56, she's 47. They are SO jealous of each other it's pathetic; and they're joined at the hip. How long this will last, I have NO clue.
His children has a hard time of it; his son has pretty well come to terms with it, his daughter is another story; there is alot of damage there.
He is STILL within the tunnel..he told me a few months ago, that he was trying to make some important decisions; he's aware that I KNOW what's up with him. (He got mad at me, when I told him).
His ex-wife finally got tired of all he was doing; the wishy-washy routine, hopping between her and OW; dragging his feet about making a choice between them, and filed in 2001. He went on with the OW.
She says it was the BEST thing she ever did. It's been a few years, now and she's remarried, having married someone MUCH better than her ex-husband ever was.
She DID go on, take her journey and learn her lessons, most, before she remarried.
I'm fairly sure ain't NONE of the MLC/OW "relationships happy..there's plenty of thorns in the "roses".
It's all based on deception, and when it's based like that, it cannot last for long..and if it does last any length of time, it's fraught with trouble, heartache, fighting..and the list goes on. Only "kids" would half way put up with it, if it goes on for a long period of time; in my humble opinion.
The following has been drawn from memory and from the research I did before on OWs during MLC. Maybe this will ALSO answer your question in some depth:
I recall a posting that I wish I could find, but it is not here anymore called "Neurotics attract Neurotics" that pretty well detailed the relationship between MLC'er and OW.
It is my understanding that there are several types of MLC affair relationships between different MLC'ers and OWs.
The majority of the time it not about money, sex or anything of that sort for the MLC'er. According to Jim Conway; the Midlife man is looking for understanding and an emotional connection, and this whole scenario gets out of control before he knows it; ESPECIALLY if somewhere, buried deep within his heart, he doesn't intend to leave his wife in the first place.
There's a few that are looking for some "late night lusting" and may do several "one night stands". Don't know anyone who's done that.
In his mind, as he's looking for that understanding/emotional connection, his wife won't do; because he's seeing HER as the enemy, AND the one at fault(which is SO not true) so he begins a friendship with another woman, that, in time can get out of control, becoming the Midlife Affair. It can start as an Emotional type connection, and possibly NEVER go physical. Some start up as an EA, go to a PA, because of "trickery" on the part of the OW, who is not above using sex to keep this man, because she says she "luvs" him. Women, as a general rule, give sex to get love, and OW is like that to an extent, except she equates love with sex; and both are not the same. Trouble is, the MLC'er doesn't have any more of a clue of what love really is than the OW does.
It is also my understanding that OW, is a woman that's just as emotionally damaged as the MLC'er is; even possibly going through MLC herself. Her agenda might be the same or even quite different from his. She may be married, or not.
As strange as this may sound; he might NOT be looking for just a girlfriend; he may be "re-creating" a connection from long ago; and believe it or not; in his eyes, OW could take the form of his "mother"; so he can make the break once again (the same break he was unable to do when leaving his mother so long ago) this time for good. Yet, OW, while she's in the picture, can act as a band-aid, distracting him to that he doesn't look at his issues. He doesn't have the responsibility while with her, and she's not going to pressure him about money for kids, groceries, bills and such.
In that process, Neurotics have attracted each other..and they begin using each other for different things. Neither sees it like that; and I've heard all the terms from "she's my soul mate," to "she really understands me like no one else does." To me it's a bunch of blah, blah, blah, and yadda, yadda, yadda. Acting like a couple of teens that are SO immature.
Trouble really starts, as the "relationship" becomes close; and they start having disagreements; this comes after a period of time; most especially after the affair gets blown out into the open; whether by getting caught or by the MLC'er telling LBS what he's doing.
The MLC'er is a controller; but so is the OW; and they have fights about different issues. Depending upon how the MLC'er views the OW...their life can be stormy or relatively calm;(well, at least while they are sneaking around) neither condition should last very long, at the most, two years. Again, it depends upon the reasoning(or lack of) BEHIND the MLC affair; and it is doubtful you'd ever find out for sure.
OW is mostly insecure(remember she's got problems, too), and tries to hold on to the MLC'er by appeasement and other tactics that eventually will wear thin.
Either that, or the MLC'er will "smother" the OW because of HIS insecurities; because he really doesn't trust her(in his moments of clarity, ANY woman who will cheat with him, will cheat ON him), being excessively jealous..and THAT puts strain on their "relationship."
A general Midlife affair can last from six months to two years; yet, they've been known to last longer, depending on both parties....and will usually dissolve as the couple starts toward the stage where a committment should take place.
Even though he's not looking at his issues, a few of his issues can be settled during the MLC affair, such as the "mother" deal, or even, as the affair is melting down, he suddenly realizes that he really DOES love his wife..this can come while he's beginning to "wake up" to the fact that he's made a mess of his life.
More fighting ensues, when he attempts to break the affair off; or even as the OW realizes this is not working and tries to do it.
You will usually have one or the other who will not let go; it is rare that both will agree to call it quits at the same time.
Since an affair is an "addiction" quite similar to a drug, it may take some time to break it up completely.
If OW breaks it off, the MLC'er will chase her, pestering her; if the MLC'er breaks it off, the OW will chase him.
It is VERY important that if the MLC'er is trying to break off his affair to just watch..or even if OW is attempting to end things. It WILL add time, and/or make things worse if it is interfered with..believe me, I know, I made this mistake.
When the whole thing FINALLY winds down, the MLC'er will go into "OW Withdrawal" which is DIFFERENT than the stage of Withdrawal. He MUST have time to remove her from his heart and his mind. The patience of the LBS is tried sorely during this time; as he's processing the affair and the fallout it has caused.
As hard as it is, he must be left alone to get through; as he will be suffering greatly; this is a serious mistake he's made and a betrayal of not just his marriage, his vows and his wife, but also of himself.
I know you asked one question, Trusting, but the memories were coming back on the other, so I included BOTH in this post.
Hopefully, this will all help.
Remember, as each person is different, every MLC/Transition is different..what works for one may not work for another. Most of the time it is trial and error for ALL involved.
Thanks HB! I know this is a time where I should be focusing and working on myslef and I really am...it is just the wanting/needing to understand and the "curious George" in me that would like to figure this out!
HB....You DID answer my question, only not until much later, and I apologize for my question being so cryptic....
Originally Posted By: HeartsBlessing
I know it to be true, regarding myself, as I WAS THERE at one point in time, experienced a few things I didn't like at all, had to face reality, no holds barred, concerning things about me, my life AND yes, my marriage. A mirror was thrown up in self-reflection; only then was I able to pin point MY problems and fix them. I reached the realization during this journey of mine that I would be fine REGARDLESS of whether my marriage made it or not.
Originally Posted By: HeartsBlessing
Marriages end within MLC, some are rebuilt, some end; new beginnings are created; and with them, new feelings regarding ourselves and the LBS will gain a sense of "starting over", regardless of what happens. In a sense, the LBS comes to an Acceptance of sorts; not much different than the MLC'er does.
The marriage AND life as you saw it ended the day you discovered the MLC'er went into the tunnel. And it's an opportunity(if you will come to see it that way) to discover what YOU want out of your life.
MY prompting for the question is....
Although understanding MLC is a must....
The journey for the LBS is where the focus should lie in a stand. NOT where our MLCer is at in their tunnel.
Focusing on the MLCer, and wallowing in their misery, can keep the LBS evenmore stuck than their spouse.
When you were here before, and a lot of your old posts seem to be gone now, you were an advocate of the path that the LBS must walk.....
A lot of people see you as a success because your marriage was "saved".
What they don't realize is.....without YOU walking your path, there would have been very little hope of building something from the ashes of your old marriage. ( unless the archives lied )
And I think.....
THAT subject is the one that has been lack ....
Your Stages, have been read and passed ( at least suggested) to all that enter this site .
The disclaimer, has been missed by MANY about the timeline.
I ,personally, thank you for each of those.
Each of our journeys are equally important through this...
The only journey WE can do anything about....Is our own.
This is something that I was thinking about this morning, all of what you are talking about. Mach,Trapt,Cat, Jack you have told me this is a process. This process includes learning certain lessons of the LBS. These lessons I believe are necessary to complete the LBS's journey.
If the lessons are NOT learned then the LBS can not complete the journey. I believe also the MLC'er would spend extra time in the tunnel because of this.
I was thinking that maybe some discussion of this idea might be a good idea.
The LBS journey is just as...if not MORE important for our survival through this...
These include spiritual, physical, mental growth from within.
As each MLC is induvidual, so is the path of the LBS.
These are the things that we did not/could not learn in our younger years for whatever reason..
I have always said that if we, as the LBS, can step away, and take realistic look at where WE are in this....
THIS time......IS an OPPURTUNITY to do all of the things our MLCer is doing...
WITHOUT all of the confusion, lying, cheating, manipulation, projection, blaming of others for our lot in life....
This time is truly a blessing for us.
IF WE LET IT BE...
Some are here hurting, some are still here to help others through this time ( paying it forward ), some are returning LBSers, imparting wisdom to others, their story is written already.
If you take to time to absorb what they are saying, there is true healing in their words.
Bottom line is, if the LBS is not afraid of the mirror....
Theirs will be a story of success, regardless of their marital status....
