Looking for help with WAW

[mza8]

GH31, thanks for the kind words of encouragement. I am really trying to listen to the advice of the wonderful people on this board. Hopefully some of this is working. At least I feel good that I stood my ground.

W and I talked by phone again today. Glad that we are at least now talking by phone instead of emails. I think that's an important start. We talked about listing our house. She met with a realtor and I met with my own. We compared notes and said we need to decide which one to use. Of course she wants to use her realtor and I want to use mine. In all honesty my realtor is much better and one of the top in my area...hers is not. I explained to her the good points about my realtor. She raised all sorts of objections and that she wanted to call my realtor. She tried to bait me into an argument but I didn't take the bait. I simply validated and gave her the realtor's number and said to call her with any questions.

We also talked about the car again and she also brought up the furniture and other things that she wants that I have. I reminded her that I asked her to give me a list...which she still has not done since Saturday...she hasn't changed a bit in not taking care of things when she says she is. Anyway, she again got upset when i gave her no information or the answers she wanted to hear. She asked me again where I was living and was very angry again when I told her that it was none of her business.

It has become so clear to me by talking with my W on Sat. and today just how angry she is and that she lacks any kind of trust with me. It is also very clear that she most definitely has her wall up to protect herself. I believe she feels that she will not allow anyone to control her. I don't think I ever controlled her but for some reasons I think this is what she believes and where she is now. Again, it seems very simply to me that being in good counseling and getting her to open up and FINALLY communicate with me, that this could be fixed. Again, that's my perspective and I am only guessing what she feels until she is ready to tell me.

When we disagreed about something today she asked me a question that I would not give her an answer because it was not relevant to the conversation. She then was quiet and said to me, "see?, that's why I have no trust in you because you're not being honest with me. When you start being open and honest with me then I will do the same." I thought about this tonight. I was not purposely trying to play any games. I simply would not give her the personal information she was asking and I stood my boundaries. So how do you deal with this issue? It seems we are both not willing to give any or make the first step. My reason is to keep my boundaries. I'm not sure of her reason but I would guess it's because she doesn't want to give me any info either or for that matter any hope? Don't really know but my thinking is at some point something (one of us) has to give to create some trust. Question is when, who and what? In the meantime I beleive it's most important to continue doing what I'm doing. I do see some positive results at least with my boundaries and for now that's good.

One last thing. At times my family tells me that they don't understand why I want to try to save my M with a woman who walked out and has been acting so difficult. Most of the time they are supportive with whatever I decide to do, but at times I think they get frustrated by this whole process. My answer to them is simply...I love my wife. I am so grateful for this site and the wonderful support I have received. It's good to read about so many other people in similar situations who also want to fight to save their M.

Thanks for listening.

[sandi2]

I agree, I think you handled yourself very well in the meeting with your W.

When we disagreed about something today she asked me a question that I would not give her an answer because it was not relevant to the conversation.

This is a fine line. You have to know if you are sticking to boundaries or if you are being stubborn and unconciously trying to make her pay for hurting you. You may be right about the question not being relevant, but just bear in mind that this is the woman you love and you do not want to appear mean spirited. (Just wanted to throw that in.)

You can expect her to be angry for quite some time. She probably would never have left you if she wasn't mad. It will take her time to get over it......if she ever does.

[mza8]

Sandi, I completely agree and I have been thinking the same thing. It is a fine line and it's difficult to know when to stick with my boundaries and when to offer an olive branch.

I thought about my reasons for not giving her certain information. I truly don't think it's because I'm being stubborn or trying to make her pay for anything. I guess I'm trying to protect myself and not give her any ammunition right now. I'm concerned she will hold onto things and bring them up down the road.

However, when is it time to start trying to rebuild some trust here? One of us is going to have to take a leap of faith eventually. Do I wait for her or do I make the move? Very difficult decision indeed. Don't want to seem like I caved in to her. She has asked for a few small kitchen items (dishes, etc.). I could care less about giving her these items, she can have them. Do I take the first step (olive branch) and surprise her by giving these small items back to her? I know this seems really silly but I'm trying to make sure if I begin to take some small steps that they are the right steps. I will keep my boundaries on the big items.

Maybe for right now I wait a while longer until W and I agree on house and car?...or, I make a good faith move first with these small items in an effort to make her feel less anger towards me. What I mean by that is she might start to believe that I am not trying to be controlling of the entire situation.

Anyone have any thoughts?

[sandi2]

I'm not sure what your boundaries are, but things like dishes and letting her have things in the house that are easily replaced should not be an issue. I do not see that crossing a boundary. The house & car are bigger things to consider, of course. To me, a boundary would be something that you draw the line and say, "I cannot live with that behavior in my life". It is something she does that disrespects you in some way and you say, "that's crossing the line".

Not giving her information....like where you live, if that is to protect yourself...then I guess that's your business, but if it is to be mean spirited, then it's wrong and will not help the R.

She has huge trust issues with you. You are the only one who really knows what those issues are. I don't necessarily think giving her the care (for example) is showing her she can trust you. But, I don't understand what she is refering to.

Just do what you know is the right thing. Be fair about everything.

[stark648]

Sandi2-- sorry for hijack, but could you look at pages 3 and four of my posts when u get a chance?


thx

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1947519&page=3

[mza8]

Sandi,

I did give her the dishes and some other things yesterday and dropped thmem off at our house. I just felt like it was the right thing to do.

Today at church I prayed for a sign with my W, a phone call, text message, something. After church I stopped by the house to check on it since no one is living there. Well, my W was there and packing the dishes I left for her. I think she was a bit surprised when I walked in. A sign? Who knows...

It was the first time we have been alone together and in the house since she left in Oct. We walked around the house together and taklked about all of the things that need to be done to get it ready for sale. The entire time my W walked around with her arms crossed...seemed like a defense mechanism. She was very quiet in her voice when she spoke. I tried to see if I could talk about something other than the house but not about R. So I asked her about her health and she answered a few questions but said she didn''t want to talk about it. I also told her where I was living and she thanked me for telling her. I asked her about her apartment and she told me that she doesn't have one yet, hasn't signed any lease and doesn't know when she will get around to it. This changed quick after she told me last week that she was getting ready to get her apartment and made it sound like it was a done deal. There were a few other personal things I asked her which she answered which I thought was good.

Her tone today was much better than our conversation on Thursday. I got her to crack a smile and chuckle a few times today. I helped her pack a few of her things into her car and then gave her a quick hug when we left. She didn't hug me back but she didn't pull away...she kept her arms crossed. She didn't talk about anything negative today and neither did I.

Overall I thought it was a very positive interaction. I can't put my finger on it and don't know how to describe it but after today I truly am starting to think that my W might be struggling with this. I would love to think this gives me hope but I know better and will continue to give her space and time. I know my W and I beleive that she is not 100% convinced of what she wants. I was very upbeat and positive today with her.

I can definitely understand how easy it is to slip into R talk. Being alone today with those quiet moments I could have easily talked about the R but I kept strong and never mentioned it. I told her that i was going to come by the house again later today and bring the dogs if she wanted to see them and take them for a walk. She said she would think about it which I know means no but it was a better way of her to say it then come right out and say no in an angry way. She said she might come back later today to get more of her things.

So who knows what any of this means or if anything with my W has changed. At least she was more receptive to conversation today. The anger wasn't there today. Maybe a bit of trust was rebuilt today. Maybe some of the things I am doing are showing positive signs? I'll continue to stay patient. Maybe my not pushing and pursuing are starting to work? I wanted to text her again today and see if she wanted to meet me at the house to see the dogs but I realize that is pursuing and I won't do it. If she wants to see them she will let me know.

I really needed this today. It's been a tough week for me for some reason. I wanted so bad to hug my W and not let her go today.

[sandi2]

You did good! The only small sign of pursuing was when you offered to bring the dogs for her to walk. And, you saw how she reacted to that. I think it was b/c she was afraid you were using the dogs as a tool to get closer to her. It will take a lot of time for her to be able to overcome whatever her trust issues are.

You did make a move in the right direction (for her trust) in telling her where you will be living. Some may disagree and say that she lost that right, but I see no purpose of keeping it a secret. What would be the point other than just trying to put a wider wedge between you. Anyway, I think you felt good b/c you were able to stay away from pursuing & R talks....plus you did what you knew was the right thing to do with the dishes, etc.

[mza8]

Thanks Sandi. I can't help but wonder what, if amything, today meant. Was it my W showing early signs of softening or was she just being nice?

I spoke to my neighbor again today who spoke with my W last week. W sat down with neighbor to talk. Neighbor said my W commented that she was moving in a different direction. neighbor reiterated that wife only said good things about me, didn't want to hurt me. W then teared up when talking about me. At times I think my W is more comfortable talking with people other than her family ask she never got much support in her life from her family. Her family is not the loving type. I know my W has struggled with this her entire life. Anyway, neighbor said my W seemed very sad.

Do the tears mean she still has love for me? Do wives that leave shed tears for their LBH because of love still in their hearts or for some other reason...pity, guilt, etc.?

At this point I am very confident that their in no OM in this sitch. Again, I truly believe my W had gotten to a point she just couldn't deal with the financial stress anymore. Our family and friends familiar with our story all believe that time will heal our M. I wouldn't necessarily say that my W had a MLC but given the circumstances I do believe she is/has experienced some sort of crisis.

Sandi, I posted a question earlier today in Coach's "Boundaries" thread. Puppy gave some great advice to someone about talking to his W. Here is what he said...

"Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
Originally Posted By: godhelpme
I have a question regarding the OM. Should I be setting a boundary given the following:

- W has already moved out.
- W has taken all of her items.
- No Contact is currently in effect.
- She is pushing for formalized separation agreement.



GHM,

Very good question. This is very difficult to do when they are in full walkaway mode. If it were me, I would still attempt to, however, with something like the following:

"Wife, you say you want space, and a formal separation agreement. And I know you have some legitimate complaints about my role in the dysfunction in our marriage. I acknowledge that, and as you know i am working on my issues, and I hope that in time you will learn to trust that my changes are for real.

"I am willing to go to marriage counseling with you to try to save our marriage. I think we may both regret it someday if we don't do everything we can to try. But I'm not a fool, and I need to be clear with you. I cannot respect your decision to cut-and-run like this, and I damned sure can't respect your decision to involve a 3rd person in our marriage. (at this point she will try to stop you, and lie to you). Put your hand up in the "stop" position, and say "Please stop --we both know you're lying to me right now, so let me finish.

"You need to know that I will not share you with another man, and I will not be your friend if you choose to end our marriage this way. Whatever is going on with this guy, it needs to stop, but I realize that I cannot control you and I have no desire to. Just know that I will not be agreeable to a separation until such time that you've REALLY worked on our marriage with me, without the involvement of a third person. If you refuse to end that, then I will have no choice but to protect myself as much as I possibly can. I do love you, but I won't be made a fool."

And then I'd walk away.

If she tries to deny OM, say "Please stop lying to me. It's incredibly disrespectful to me and to our marriage. When you're ready to speak to me honestly, we can continue the conversation. As for the legal stuff, I think that would be best if we left that to our attorneys."

That's what I would do. And then I would spend the next two weeks finding out everything I could about OM. Who he is, what he does, is he married, what it is he does that attracted my wife.

I would combine a hard legal stance and hardline confrontation/exposure, with loving detachment, GAL, 180s and working on my own issues.

Puppy"

Sandi, my question is if you think it's appropriate to say this to my W now or wait a while first, especially since right now we are in the stressful process of discussing financial issues. So I don't know if it might be better say this to W now or wait until after my W and I finish discussing our financial issues?

I feel like I'm doing the right things in my own life now...for me. I also feel like I'm getting in a much more comfortable place now to be able to continue to take care of myself and also try to make strides to reach out to my W to save our M. I don't want to push though. When do you know the time is right to reach out to W?

[sandi2]

Sandi. I can't help but wonder what, if amything, today meant. Was it my W showing early signs of softening or was she just being nice?

She was simply being nice. If you had brought up the subject of the R.....she would have turned in a second. You saw how she reacted just at the offer to bring the dogs. The least push and she would not have stayed even as long as she did. Did you notice that she didn't want to walk the dogs, but she said she would be back later to get more of her things? Unless she couldn't carry more at the time, I'd think she was beginning to feel uncomfortable and didn't want to risk any more time....afraid you'd pursue.

Sandi, my question is if you think it's appropriate to say this to my W now or wait a while first, especially since right now we are in the stressful process of discussing financial issues. So I don't know if it might be better say this to W now or wait until after my W and I finish discussing our financial issues?

If there was OM...yes I would certainly say so, but if there is no OM/Affair, then why would it make any sense to say that?

You should always have boundaries....but it doesn't mean there is OM/affair involved. Even with coworkers, family, friends, etc., you have boundaries. You have to make it fit the situation. In your stitch with your W, you just have to make sure she does not disrespect you. It is hard when the WAW has moved out and the S/D is in progress. There are no children and there is no OP involved......you are dividing everything, so I'm not sure what you are really asking me.....other than if you should quote what Puppy said. Again, that was directed to a person in a stitch with an A involved.

I think today, you are feeling like grabbing at straws. The reason I say this is first you were praying for a sign. I don't really believe in signs b/c we can read anything to be a "sign". I could add a lot more to that subject, but no need. Anyway, your hopes soared b/c the time with your W was pretty good and therefore you are seeking to find something that will work in your favor......like maybe a "boundary".

[mza8]

Sandi, sorry, I think I was vague about what I want to tell me W. From Puppy's post I would take out the part about OM as I don't think that applies in my sitch. What I was thinking about saying to W was the part about admiting my part of the problems in M that contributed to us being where we are today. I would tell her that I cannot agree with how she cut and run out on our M. That I would be willing to go to MC only to work on our M and not for closure. Also add that I don't want us to have any regrets in the future (and I think she would) that we didn't at least try. Problem is as I type this some of it sounds like pursuing. Difficult to know when the timing is right.

That's pretty much all that I would want to say to W. I'm trying not to fall into making more out of today than what it was. However, at least her demeanor did change a bit for the better today. My DB coach says to be observant of small positive changes in W which might show small signs of change in her behavior.

I agree with your last few posts to me that it will take my W a long time to regain the trust and lose the anger...if it ever does. In the meantime I feel like I am at least not doing anything to push her further away. It's very confusing to know if any of the DB things that I am doing are working. When I go back and think about the past 4 months I do see differences. She calls me now instead of emailing. She meets with me face to face without her family in attendance. She shares some personal information with me now. Some other small things too.

Thanks again for all of your advice. Helps me keep things in perspective and keep me on track. I'm not trying to reach for any fals hope, instead just keep my eyes open to any improvement.

Thank you again.