If a woman OR a man is simply too far off the scale of normal for whatever reason, then I just don't know if the advice here on this thread will be relevant to them.
...I just don't see you having many options other than to leave, or to go without. You say that being the considerate/consulting lover appears to be your only option...yet that option is not providing you with any "great" results, as far as I can tell. You simply have to think it over and decide for yourself: is it really a NEED of yours, or would you rather stay married to this particular woman?
...The only dignified options are to stay married and accept your fate, or leave and try for a different life. I am sorry it comes down to that and it such a difficult choice.
...The question is, is your wife damaged sexually in some way? DQ
A few thoughts.
Even though my wife may be considered "off the normal charts," I have been helped by the SSM forum greatly as well as greatly helped by MWD and her book the SSM. While you are probably right about "this tread" (on how some women view/need an alpha male in the bedroom) may not provide much help for me, I have gotten support and advice from people in SSM's who have faced greater starvation that I.
What I tried to point out in my earlier post was something I learned recently about emotional overload causing my wife to emotionally shutdown and to also point out that being an alpha male in the bedroom is something that needs to be approached with caution by a reader of the SSM forum, as so many of us SSM-males are in a relationship where the bedroom is filled with emotional landmines. While a discussion on alpha males in the bedroom might be fine for other forums like newcomers, piecing it together, 180's, etc., it seems a bit much in the SSM area to me. I may be wrong in that, but that is how I saw it.
Getting back to support in this forum, I have learned so much in just a few months. People like SillyOldBear, SSMGuy, Bagheera, TeaEarlGrayHot, and others who "have been there and done that," have suggested books that really helped me and have urged me to be patient and slow down my quest for healing my SSM. Because they have been where I find myself and have perspective, this forum has helped me a lot. While I intuitively knew I needed to GAL, specific suggestions and the book NMMNG were truly helpful.
One of the things I have been particularly impressed with by some of the SSM forum participants is their "love/devotion" to their wives even in an SSM. I just finished the book Mating in Captivity, which is about how familiarity is necesary for a long term marriage and yet the unfamiliar is required for true erotic/hedonistic passion. It talks about ways of consentually structuring the "unfamiliar" into a long term marriage as a way of puting the X in sex. I also got through with a 2-day Gottman Institute workshop last weekend that demonstrated how much my wife and I have in common in terms of values, morals, life visions/dreams, and concern/respect for each other and yet we are in an SSM and working on breaking free of gridlock on sexual frequency.
I do think that I have another option besides resigning myself to near celibacy or divorce. That option or hope is to communicate my needs, get help from therapists for my wife and myself as a couple, work on GAL, and making her feel loved as best I can, while being very clear about my trying to decide on ending the marriage or not. So far it has been very hard, but I am seeing some change and have hope for the future. The considerate/consulting lover is required to build the trust of my wife, it is not begging for sex or to me a sign of weakness, just one of learning how to not violate a delicate trust as my wife attempts to open up to me. I am sure, for my goals to be reached, it will require huge change on the part of my wife and a statement of how much she really loves me and trusts me to put herself through that much change.
I want to give her the opportunity to make those changes, if she wants to, as I dearly love her and always will. While I have changed and am "leading" by example, I am doing everything I can think of to give her support and a helping hand in her potential change. Part of this is because I also know that I and my past behavior toward her have been part of the problem that caused her to withdraw from me. Another part is because I really want to be with her and have us both find happiness.
I am so happy that you are finding happiness with your husband, that you could extend your honeymoon, and that you have found the alpha male and sex that you need. Good luck to you.
>43 years of marriage--My wife and I are now closer than we have been in decades. I believe that my SSM is over.
Young...I must apologize, as I may have had you confused with another poster.
You said: "I do think that I have another option besides resigning myself to near celibacy or divorce. That option or hope is to communicate my needs, get help from therapists for my wife and myself as a couple, work on GAL, and making her feel loved as best I can, while being very clear about my trying to decide on ending the marriage or not. So far it has been very hard, but I am seeing some change and have hope for the future. The considerate/consulting lover is required to build the trust of my wife, it is not begging for sex or to me a sign of weakness, just one of learning how to not violate a delicate trust as my wife attempts to open up to me. I am sure, for my goals to be reached, it will require huge change on the part of my wife and a statement of how much she really loves me and trusts me to put herself through that much change."
And this is why I must apologize...is that I didn't realize you hadn't already tried and done all of these things. I may have confused your story with someone else's. If you HAD already done and tried all of these things and still not gotten ANY improvement, THEN and ONLY THEN would I say there may not be much other hope. But I am sorry for speaking out of turn...YES these things you are trying very probably will help your SSM.
Also Young...you said: "While a discussion on alpha males in the bedroom might be fine for other forums like newcomers, piecing it together, 180's, etc., it seems a bit much in the SSM area to me. I may be wrong in that, but that is how I saw it."
I don't know if you've read some of my much older posts (going back 2 years ago or so)...but I've written about and encouraged others to write about some very VERY sexual and somewhat taboo subjects. I've had posts called "stripping for your mate" and "DQ's sex blog". I've discussed everything from female ejaculation to bondage/BDSM to gay/lesbian sex to group sex....and even a few things weirder than those. ;0)
Here's my deal....I am a very sexual person and I used to be in a SSM. I was sex starved, but I now know that I am actually very HD. I like talking about the nuts and bolts of sex, without talking "dirty". I want to be able to discuss rationally very sexual and sensual subjects, without trying to turn it into erotica or turn anyone on. I enjoy open, frank discussion on the topic of sex, which is a very large part of my life, with intelligent, well-written adults.
I feel like I've found that group of intelligent, well-written adults here on this forum, and along with that, many of my favorite posters have also been very sexual and also eager to discuss deep, dark secrets and topics with other intelligent people, in a way that does not elicit sexual arousal. Silly, Bagheera, Lucky Girl, and Cinco, were all really great conversationalists along with me for quite a long time on this forum...and our talking about more than just being sex starved, in fact talking about "what happens when/if you finally are NOT sex starved", was a happy and enjoyable exercise for me (and I believe for them, too). Most of them are not posting very often now or have totally disappeared. And so I admit, I feel kind of adrift alone out here on this forum...I can easily see where you (or others) may think "wth is she bringing up a GREAT sex life for, when others here are trying to have ANY sex life? What point is there in that?" I do get your POV on this.
But I will say to you as I have said on many of my older threads...I used to be in YOUR shoes. I wanted and needed an outlet to discuss very frankly and openly my sexual thoughts and feelings, and if I had had a place to do that back when I was in an SSM, I would have been better off for it. I wanted and needed mentors who had found their way OUT of my position. I wanted and needed to believe there were people out there who had the type of sex life I wanted, without being unfaithful to get it.
So now... I AM that person, and I do want to help others believe that a great sex life can be attained and can exist...that it must be sought after with a vengence if it is that high of a priority to you, and how to avoid the mistakes I made in trying to get here.
Again, I'm sorry I had you confused with someone who had already tried all the methods you are now trying. You DO have a chance at getting the life you want. You ARE capable of getting that life. Hold tight to your NEEDS and hopefully, they will lead you to their own fulfillment. I am sorry to hear your POV about this thread but I do respect it...at the same time...I respectfully ask you to see it a little differently. I want to be a beacon of hope, and I want to discuss honestly and openly but NOT erotically, items that affect the sex lives of ourselves and many of those around us. If you want join me in the discussions, I welcome you. If not, I respect that.
Sexual abuse history can obviously complicate a desire to be physically dominated.
That's an excuse that's convenient for you to exuse the difficulties yo have in your relationship. There is a very big difference between a man who is sexually confident and loves you - than a misogynst, dysfunctional abuser.
Gosh, you really think there is anybody posting here who doesn't understand that??? I must be misunderstanding your comment, but that's what it seems to say!
Quote:
It also demonstrates that you don't understand the difference between being sexually dominant in a mature, mutually signficant sexual relationship and being "dominant" in a whip me, beat me, love me context. Huge difference my friend, huge diference - and all women, abused or not, can tell the difference.
I'm sure I'm misunderstanding what you wrote, otherwise it demonstrates that you know nothing about sexual abuse. I can't imagine there is anyone intelligent enough to post here who doesn't understand that there's a difference between cognitively understanding something, and an irrational fear. The fact that I know I'm safe standing in the observation area of the tallest skyscraper doesn't mean I don't feel an irrational fear that keeps me from walking close to the window to look down at streets 2,000 feet below.
And what do you mean by "being 'dominant' in a whip me, beat me, love me context"? Do you mean a consensual, loving, BDSM relationship, or an abusive one where the woman is beaten against her will, stays with the man because at other times he "loves" her? I would have to assume the latter, but your wording isn't clear.
You also seem to say that being sexually abused is no excuse for a sexless relationship? Are you saying that the effects of sexual abuse are just made up?
I have to assume I misunderstood everything you wrote.
That is about the most toxic, intolerant, and just plain fu.ck.ing wrong thing I have ever read on this forum. You owe every sexually-abused woman (and man) on the planet who may not be able to "tell the difference" an apology.
I apologise for offending anyone. Certainly not my intention.
I was sexually abused for many years - and perhaps my post says more about my journey than anything else….
I've worked very hard to understand and learn the difference between my abuser and men who love and respect me. It’s tough work – and perhaps I am intolerant of those who won’t do the work to understand the difference. I’ll reflect on that.
.I don’t back down from the concept that there is a huge difference between an intimate and loving sexual relationship with a man who loves me and the man who abused me.
Last edited by Walking; 02/28/1001:13 PM.
V
Never make someone a priority, who makes you an option.
I can't imagine there is anyone intelligent enough to post here who doesn't understand that there's a difference between cognitively understanding something, and an irrational fear. The fact that I know I'm safe standing in the observation area of the tallest skyscraper doesn't mean I don't feel an irrational fear that keeps me from walking close to the window to look down at streets 2,000 feet below.
You see ... that's the thing. If I have an irrational fear of heights, I'd get help and deal with it. I can’t think of a single excuse for continuing to live with an irrational fear.
There is no reason to let life be limited by irrational fears. There are all the resources available to us heal from those experiences, behaviours and fears … and its self indulgent to allow those things to become excuses for not living a full life.
Quote:
You also seem to say that being sexually abused is no excuse for a sexless relationship? Are you saying that the effects of sexual abuse are just made up?
I know well and very personally that the effects of sexual abuse are not made up. I also know that just like being fat or being afraid of heights (or any other limiting belief about my life that I have control over) I have the power to change it … so that I’m not a victim of it.
I guess I am intolerant of the circular dialogue around all the reasons people’s lives aren’t right.
If it’s not right – change it or live with it. Those are the only 2 choices.
It’s not possible to change bad things that have happened to us. It’s not possible to do anything about the past.
It is possible to make a decision to make your life the best it can be regardless of the bad things that have happened …
I was insensitive in the way that I presented it in the last post … and for that I apologise.
V
Never make someone a priority, who makes you an option.
Young-at-Heart, I wanted to get back to something you said:
"What I tried to point out in my earlier post was something I learned recently about emotional overload causing my wife to emotionally shutdown and to also point out that being an alpha male in the bedroom is something that needs to be approached with caution by a reader of the SSM forum, as so many of us SSM-males are in a relationship where the bedroom is filled with emotional landmines. While a discussion on alpha males in the bedroom might be fine for other forums like newcomers, piecing it together, 180's, etc., it seems a bit much in the SSM area to me. I may be wrong in that, but that is how I saw it."
I was in the same situation as your W for much of the early years in our M. I agree, at that time I couldn't have coped with my H behaving like an alpha male--especially because sex sometimes triggered flashbacks to episodes of abuse that I'd never consciously allowed to surface, which I would then (unfairly) blame on his actions.
HOWEVER, the sort of sex where my H wanted to know if *this* touch felt all right or not, or what I wanted him to do next DURING sex was a complete and utter turn-off. It made it impossible to feel that I was a sexy woman being ravished by her man--which, now that I've moved past all the abuse, is what turns me on. Perhaps if these things had been discussed outside the bedroom they might have been acceptable, but when they intruded into the bedroom, they made it impossible to feel any passion. It was as though my H was reduced from a confident man to a pimply teenager asking, "Is it okay if I touch your breasts?"
It was only when *I* took responsibility for dealing with my past that things were able to begin shifting, and our SSM-days ended. At that point I started looking at this forum and reading DQ (among other)'s descriptions of what a truly healthy M would look like, as a sort of future goal. In that sense, I think this thread absolutely belongs here--as with everything else on this site, people need to learn to assess whether they're at the right stage to implement any given technique/concept.
I'm sorry that your wife is having such a difficult time, and hope that with the help of your therapist and all the books you're reading and changes you're making, you'll see some progress! Is there a possibility that your W was sexually abused? The degree of her emotional flooding, etc, seems extreme for just growing up in a sexually repressive household.
Young-at-Heart, I wanted to get back to something you said:
...Is there a possibility that your W was sexually abused? The degree of her emotional flooding, etc, seems extreme for just growing up in a sexually repressive household.
Thank you very much for you sharing and insights as someone who has been there.
I would not be surprised if my wife was verbally/emotionally abused, especially by her mother, growing up. I don't know, but strongly suspect that a verbal abuse by her mother and a mother who did not exhibit affection to either her husband or children along with a lot of negatives about sex being something good girls didn't do is the source of much of my wife's problems. When my children were small I protected them from too much contact with my wife's parents. Had I ever suspected any form of sexual abuse might have gone on, I would have never allowed my children anywhere near their grandparents.
When my wife was younger, driven by her own youthful hormones, a desire to leave her parents home and get married, plus later a desire to have children, did result in several years of sexual passion on her part toward me. I realize that children and things I have not done over the years helped to cause my wife to withdraw from me.
Quote:
...I was in the same situation as your W for much of the early years in our M. I agree, at that time I couldn't have coped with my H behaving like an alpha male--especially because sex sometimes triggered flashbacks to episodes of abuse that I'd never consciously allowed to surface, which I would then (unfairly) blame on his actions.
HOWEVER, the sort of sex where my H wanted to know if *this* touch felt all right or not, or what I wanted him to do next DURING sex was a complete and utter turn-off. It made it impossible to feel that I was a sexy woman being ravished by her man--which, now that I've moved past all the abuse, is what turns me on. Perhaps if these things had been discussed outside the bedroom they might have been acceptable, but when they intruded into the bedroom, they made it impossible to feel any passion. It was as though my H was reduced from a confident man to a pimply teenager asking, "Is it okay if I touch your breasts?"....
I appreciate your suggestions above. I think that there is a difference (to me at least) between being completely tentative throughout the act of making love and being sensitive and consultative in regards to initiating love making (and/or when to stop). Having stepped on a number of emotional landmines, I am also aware of what many of my wife's "off-buttons" are when ML occurs. Your advice to separating fear inducing and stressful discussions from the bed where you want to have positive interactions is good and something stressed by many.
>43 years of marriage--My wife and I are now closer than we have been in decades. I believe that my SSM is over.
I understand from personal experience how it's possible to have several years of sexual passion (though not entirely satisfying because immature) which then gets side-tracked when one's unexplored issues overshadow the youthful passion, etc. It's a good thing that your W has those memories to build on!
If your MIL was so sexually negative, where was your FIL in all this?
Part of my point was that, in the mindset I was in, there wasn't any difference between H being "tentative" and "consultative"--either one interrupted the flow, made it seem as though my H was unsure where to go next, and transported me in a split second from "in the mood" to "mood's gone for tonight." Emotionally, I appreciated my H's support, but it did nothing for me sexually--that part could only be controlled by changes which I had to make.
