Post any questions you might have to me here....

[flowmom]

Thanks for clarifying what confusion might look like. Now I'm confused about whether H is confused or not .

I guess where I am seeing the confusion is in how H is presenting himself to the world...on his new facebook page there are a lot of pictures of and references to his past accomplishments. He is going back to the past to try to reconstruct his identity I guess.

But there are the red flags too. Before our M he did have a brief affair and that was confronted and patched over. He brought that up right before he left me 2 months ago, saying that I begged him to reconcile and that I would make changes that according to H I didn't stick to. Not at all how I remember what happened! And it's not like I pressured him to marry him 2 years later either -- that was his idea with no pressure on my part. In our M our H has had a huge amount of freedom and virtually no expectation to report his activities to me so he's had ample opportunity.

[brandnewday]

Cat,

I get what you are saying.....

For a long time I defined success by having my family "whole".
I so wanted to be one of the success stories here on the board.

In having this mindset, it stopped me from finding out who I really was as a person, as a woman, as a mother.

My life was put on hold while my Husband had his MLC because I allowed myself to make him the focus of my life. I lived in fear and anxiety because I was so afraid that if I made the wrong move or said the wrong thing I would prevent him from coming home.

He lived 3000 miles away from me and hardly ever called, visited us 3 times in 2 1/2 years and was the epitomy of MLC. A true Arse in every way.

Finally I got it.....it was like waking up and realizing that I was free to live my life and do things for myself. I stopped feeling sorry for myself and was starting to live again.

I even got so bold as to ask my Husband to go ahead and file for a divorce as I was strong enough to handle it now. I didn't want to be divorced, I still wanted my family whole, but I also saw that the worst had already happened. He left me.

My Husband did come home. We reconcilled and have had our share of the ups and downs of piecing.

In hindsight I really would have been OK. The person I became didn't "need" her husband to complete her. I would have been sad to lose him completely but I wasn't living in fear of the unknown anymore.


I have met many people from this board and from my "real" life who are amazingly happy and successful and divorced. I don't consider any of these people failures in any way.

[DiamondGirl]

Thank you very much HB. I appreciate your insight and look forward to learning more from you and others on this board.

[libbyasking]

In a previous post on your thread you mentioned the children from his/her personality appearing in Acceptance after reconnecting with the spouse.

My H 'children' have been evident for the previous few weeks on and off but I believe he is still in depression, with some replay and withdrawal running alongside.

I would be really grateful if you would clarify this again.

[HeartsBlessing]

Hi Flowmom,

Thanks for clarifying what confusion might look like. Now I'm confused about whether H is confused or not

I have to confess, I chuckled at what you said, LOL!! This is never easy to unravel. I think you're seeing him as presenting himself as something he's not; at least not the husband you once knew, right? It's an alternate reality for him; it is as he sees himself NOW in the present time.
This description, plus, I saw your signature, indicates that he's in Replay with the overtones of Denial, some leftover Anger, and a small amount of Depression mixed in.

What you're seeing is an attempt to return to something that was..and that is confusing enough to YOU, as the "sane spouse" trying to hold things together.

To you, it's confusing, to HIM it makes perfect sense. And, in hindsight, as time goes on, there will be things you'll see more clearly, plus stuff you'll NEVER have answered, or answered to your satisfaction. I've been there.

But there are the red flags too. Before our M he did have a brief affair and that was confronted and patched over. He brought that up right before he left me 2 months ago, saying that I begged him to reconcile and that I would make changes that according to H I didn't stick to. Not at all how I remember what happened! And it's not like I pressured him to marry him 2 years later either -- that was his idea with no pressure on my part. In our M our H has had a huge amount of freedom and virtually no expectation to report his activities to me so he's had ample opportunity.

Sounds to me like he was justifying his actions, and twisting HIS truth to make it look like YOUR fault. Don't you believe that; you KNOW the actual truth, Flowmom, and that is all that matters. They are the masters of headgames and the twisted word.
It also seems to me that he's suffering some guilt, and it could be over what you describe before you got married, or maybe not; they exhibit guilt over a number of things, and it's not always what you think.
Sometimes, when they DO talk, it's surprising what they talk about...and it may have NOTHING to do with what you think it does.

That's why you gotta keep letting him go for now; I would certainly hope he doesn't start a MLC affair or do something worse. So far, if I understand this right, there's no sign of OW?

There is no rule in MLC that says they have to go and get their own OW/OM to complete the picture. In fact, some drink themselves half to death, dabble in drugs, and do other "running behaviors" that "dull the pain" of life.
And some just want to be left alone on their own, and do nothing but hide out most of the time...and that doesn't always indicate Withdrawal...they can be frightened most of the time; of what, I don't know.

Your post is strong, to the point, and you're trying to understand...and I understand how that is.

But all the understanding in the world won't reverse NOR fix this...only time, letting go, and dealing with issues as they come about is all you can worry about for now.

Oh! And work on yourself, but don't let that be last in line. You are what's important at this time, not him.

Don't give him any more head time than you have to; it's not worth all that..and it can drive you totally crazy trying to analyze their behavior.

Take care, Lady.

[HeartsBlessing]

Hi LA,
Here are the six stages of MLC that I wrote:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=97846&page=1

Scroll down and look for the stage of Acceptance, Stage ONE. That is where you'll see the description of what you're asking about.

I hate to say this, but I'm thinking this is still 'early days' for your husband, and not the time yet to worry about where your husband is right now. He is still a good way from Acceptance.

I think he's in OW Withdrawal; IF the OW is gone. One of last posts I read from you said that you thought OW was still lurking around the edges. If she's doing that, he's STILL in Replay.

OW has to be totally GONE, so that he goes into OW Withdrawal; taking the necessary time to get her out of his head and his heart. It's not easy to deal with; that's why you need to back away for now, and let him go to deal on his own.

LA, you will drive yourself crazy trying to figure him out, when you're unable to; let go, let God do the work in your husband for now.

I honestly don't think he's that far along as yet; he's not had enough time to get far. There seems to be more time involved here for him to come on through, if that is what he trying to do.

The "children" should NOT make their visit until he's come through OW Withdrawal, in the case of breaking away from OW and she has to be totally gone, (NO LURKING ALLOWED) through the stages of Depression, Withdrawal, and he has to go into Stage one of Acceptance BEFORE the children appear.

You are looking at some time here, LA. And it ALL depends on HIM..nothing you can do will hurry this up. I re-read your thread and it's not been quite two weeks, this round; and unless he's a really fast astronaut, there's NO way he could have come along that fast...but then, stranger things have happened, too.

On the other hand, although you may make yourself available to him if/when he wants to talk, do NOT neglect your own journey/learning/taking care of YOU.

He does NOT need your help to come forward; I promise..and you do need to detach and distance from his drama.

It does NOT matter where he is..he still has to come through on his own. And when he needs you, he will come find you.
Don't worry so much, LA, it will work out, regardless of what happens.

Let him go; and worry about YOU. I know from experience that if you don't let go, you'll drive yourself nuts with worry.

And you don't need that.


Keep me posted.

[HeartsBlessing]

Hello Everyone;

I have something to say, and it regards the recent questions that were asked of me from Mach1 and Cat04 about what would I have done/become if my marriage hadn't made it, etc.

It opened my eyes to something that I'd seen before, hadn't thought much about, when I first came back along; but it REALLY got socked home to me today:

The difference of where I stand and where you stand in our respective journeys.

It seemed to me; AFTER answering again, that I didn't answer in a way that was understood, neither the first time nor the second. And I don't like times like that; when I'm drawing blanks.

Cat04, was correct in her assessment that I was having a problem understanding the questions that were asked. No, she didn't post that but it came across loud and clear.

I've thought it about it deeply all day; and came to this conclusion:
I am UNABLE to answer questions of those type at the place I stand in now; plus I will NEVER have any answers in that particular arena, they are not necessary in the stage of growth I'm in now.
They've been answered for ME as an individual; but I really don't remember how I answered them, except to say I'm where I'm supposed to be now, and am comfortable with my life as it is.

To explain:

After all this time I have made it to a different place in my life, NEVER to return to those times ever again, as I will not live through this again.
I remember some things as a fact, but did not retain the emotional memories of that time.

My memories are fragmented,and broken from time and healing. My healing has been complete for some time.

I have been through, not just my husband's crisis, but my own; with my "coming out" two years ago after around six years of processing through.

I could and did answer questions of that sort at the time of my husband's crisis; and I answered these same questions in my own, as I was going through the reflective phase, in BOTH journeys I undertook.

It was like I had to be sure I was making the right decision in both instances. Once settled, they were gone, relegated to a place in my mind; that I don't worry about.

This was a normal process for what I went through during that time. And, I believe it happens, also, to all that navigate successfully through.

These same questions were a necessary part of my growth and of the settling down that came with the emotional/Midlife adjustment/transition into the second part of my life.

When I finished; the door was closed forever, and I have NEVER looked back, nor questioned my decision to continue my life as it is. The ONLY second guessing I did was during my husband's MLC. I just had to look at the issues during mine; before deciding again, that I would continue.
No one's life is perfect; but, as I have said, I live with the consequences of my decision, right or wrong.

And I'm really NOT contradicting myself. It had bothered me that I was unable to answer effectively; having forgotten that I've come a LONG way since I was here before.

The truth is this: most of you are in one place, and I'm way ahead in another; on the "other side" of this, if you will.

I can help in some aspects, but not others. And, as I stated at the beginning of this thread, sometimes it takes the musings of several people to give an answer to any questions that are asked.

I have changed a great deal more than I had ever thought I had...and I was up front about having forgotten quite a few things.

To be blunt, it doesn't make any difference what you THINK you would have become, or should have become; if different things had happened. The truth on that is; you are given a choice, you make it and you go on with your life, living with the consequences of your actions, just as I do, and always will.

There have NEVER been any right or wrong answers; just decisions to make. As long as you do the best you can with what knowledge you have, you'll get through, and life goes on.

All I can say is this, and maybe it will help:

Each person walks his/her journey ALONE; no one can do it for you. It does NOT matter whatever the status quo may be at any given time for ANY person in their life.

All that really matters is that you take the journey to wholeness, and learn the lessons that each person must learn in this life.

Just like your MLC spouses have/had to take their journey and it has NOTHING to do with you; likewise, it will be and is the SAME for YOU. Your journey has NOTHING to do with your spouse; that is YOURS alone. And when you make it through, you'll answer many questions of yourself; then break through to the "other side", eventually forgetting all of this, just as I did.
And YOU, too, will most likely be as unable to answer these once you've come through and healed; because you will have settled that same issue within yourselves. And these same questions will not matter to you, either.

My journey, as I see it, was mine, alone, no one else's.
I have shared what happened to me, yet, no one will walk my journey the same way I did. There are many differences in what I went through..the issues were similar, but how I got to the end is not the same.

All I can see is ahead of me, and it's up to me to make this the best future I can make it. I have occasional memories that come up out of the blue, but they never stay long enough to really affect me.

The past is something I cannot change, so I continue to move forward.

[cat04]

Hello HB,

I took Mach1's questions for what they were and answered them.
I re-read my post; and believe I answered the questions.

Yours seem to be a "fleshing out" of what he's asking.

Yes, you are correct, this was a “fleshing out” of sorts because I understood what sort of answer was being looked for in Mach’s original question, while you answered it very literally.

Although whether to actually wear the ring or not is something many struggle with through this, being married or not, is not the definition of “success” that we try to impart here.

Why you may ask, although I think you already know the answer…

When people first come to this place, they have this overwhelming need to try to save their M and they cannot see beyond that. They look for people who have come through MLC with an intact M and they look for all of the answers from them. Like they have the “secret” answer.

The truth is, they were lucky. They learned and taught many of us others and their sitches turned around and others didn’t.

The problem with that lies in the fact that MLC is a crap shoot…There are no guarantees, there are no right or wrongs, there is trial and error…

However, even those of us whose M’s are ending or have ended, there are many many success stories.

Being a successful person is NOT so much about what you do, it is about WHO you are and how you deal when facing obstacles and trials and what you become when you're finished with each.
That same success contains elements of an open mind and heart, with capability of seeing the good AND the bad...with the added components of being able to accept ALL that happens, learn from it, heal from it if necessary and get on with your life.

I and others here will completely agree with this statement.

The third question, the answer is NO, I did not wait until reconciliation to heal and grow; the growing and healing was ongoing throughout, in stages or I couldn't have handled my husband as he came forward.

THIS is very important for people to understand IMO.

One thing I have been very concerned with lately, especially since you returned to the board, answering things very differently from the way you used to answer them…
Is the journey of the LBS…

While it is our job to understand MLC, because most would not even ATTEMPT to endure this without understanding it…

Understanding that this is a journey for the LBS, that there are steps and it is a PROCESS that we LBS MUST move through if we ever want the possibility of seeing the other side and not REPEATING this, either with our S or with another.

I felt that has become very lacking on this board. In part, I am sure because of the amount of “new” people, people who are at the beginning of this, but the guidance for them to realize that they do have an opportunity before them and there are steps they must take has been a bit slack.

To share a little, with you, because my register date does NOT reflect my journey whatsoever…

I have now been through two crisis periods with my H. As Snodderly would put it, he “didn’t complete the first time, and is repeating”.

I started this dance with him in 1998. That puts me at 12 years. Yes 12.

As I have said before, when he returned home the first time, he hadn’t done his work and I had not done mine. So yes, we have repeated. My journey this time has been very much altered. Because I did take the time to heal and grow and to learn.

love being a "choice" just as God chooses to love, so we choose to love….

love, and how it changes it's face, never stays the same, it waxes and wanes, etc.
I've also spoken of attaining a human version of God's Unconditional love, and He is the one who bestows that for the asking.
That's but ONE factor in this..there are other things, such as reality of ones situation, the lot that's been cast, the burden that's carried, the decisions that are made, the deep hurt that's sustained.....plain love and doing nothing else, will NOT fix everything;

I also agree with this, love will not FIX everything.

The act of being loving, yes that is a choice. Love itself, is not. We do not choose to love our children (I do not believe you will find too many parents who say that they don’t love their children, regardless of actions), but we do CHOOSE to act in loving ways towards them. Just as we do with our S.

However, too many people here spend time waiting for THEIR loving feelings for the S to go away before they try to make changes. They feel like it has them stuck in some sort of holding pattern and they truly BELIEVE the words of their S when they hear ILYBNILWY.

Accepting that you still have those loving feelings, and that it is normal and that the S does as well, just buried deep inside, is important for people to begin their own journeys, IMO.

So telling them that their love for their S will end, which you have done, really bothered me. Yes that may be how it was explained to you and that may have been necessary for your journey and your understanding but I worry about the message it sends to others...

I have yet to speak with someone who is D’d, 10, 20 years down the road who does not admit that they do still love their former S in some way.

We can love everyone but NOT agree with their actions. Yet, that love may not change, because love, is NOT dependent on actions. God loves us in spite of what we do, because He chooses to do this. We love Him because He first loved us.
And showed it in a mighty way. He separates our behavior from His love for us as a person. We need to learn this as well, as this is evidence of Unconditional love.
No matter what people do, we still love them, and will let them go if necessary to keep us from being harmed through their actions toward us.
The Bible says He has called us to peace, exhorting us to let go if someone doesn't want to stay with us.

This is why the “letting go” is so important in this process.

The Lord also sends people and resources to help us understand so we CAN help ourselves. Without understanding, we cannot move forward, and stay stuck in our circumstances.
He will aid our efforts but will NOT do it FOR us; it is part of our learning.

I agree with this as well. Which is why this board exists.

The hormonal imbalance and emotional adjustment; while seen as the same are actually separated, somewhat. As Snodderly says, and she's right..you can go through Menopause and STILL have a MLC.

There is little Snodderly says that I don’t agree with…

That being said, yes we all will go through some sort of adjustment. Just like we all go through childhood and adolescence, we will all go through changes as we get older. It is part of life’s process. It is how we handle it that determines how horrible it will be.

Taking this journey, can help make other adjustment periods easier. Being open minded, being willing to face fears, learn from situations, and not RUN from them…

Life is full of challenges. It is a constant changing and adjustment period.

Knowledge, Understanding, Patience, Love, Time, and Faith…
Those are the things that will get us through all of them.

BND--Thanks

[flowmom]

HB, thanks for your caring reply to my questions and comments. It means a lot to me. I am working on GAL and dealing with my own issues, both personally and in IC. I'm working on giving H less head time too.

It also seems to me that he's suffering some guilt, and it could be over what you describe before you got married, or maybe not; they exhibit guilt over a number of things, and it's not always what you think.

He definitely feels guilty about leaving his family, he even said that in an email to my mother when he separated.

That's why you gotta keep letting him go for now; I would certainly hope he doesn't start a MLC affair or do something worse. So far, if I understand this right, there's no sign of OW?

No. About a week after he moved out, I asked (for the second time) if there was on OW involved in our sitch. With a bitter tone of voice, he replied "I wish. It would make this a lot easier for me". I believe that he said that truthfully and impulsively. But of course he could have been lying. Also, about 2 weeks ago he mentioned a hypothetical scenario of him dating but clarified that he wasn't yet. I'm assuming that he will be in a sexual relationship soon, if not already.

There is no rule in MLC that says they have to go and get their own OW/OM to complete the picture. In fact, some drink themselves half to death, dabble in drugs, and do other "running behaviors" that "dull the pain" of life.

H doesn't drink or do drugs. He has used relationship/sex melodrama in an addictive way to deal with pain and grief before though. He did come to understand this about himself so it will be interesting to see if he goes there again (if he hasn't already).

[courageous wife]

Hi HB...just wrote this on my own thread and it got me to really wondering how long that my H has been in MLC. Thought I'd paste on here and see what you thought.


So, just sitting here thinking that it has been 6mos since the bomb and 2 since H left...half a year already!

Saw a time line on one of HB's sermons and got me to thinking about when H's MLC started? Could it have seriously been back in 2001 when he left us the first time? He had quit his job of 20 years without having another one to go to and cashed in his 401K.

OR... was it when he got fired from a job for very immature, goofing around stuff in which several people got fired? Then, after he finally gets the job where he is it now, buys the Hot Rod without telling me...a few months later, my Dad dies, I am diagnosed with breast cancer and somewhere in between all that EA started with co-worker which turned into PA, still not sure when that happened...H had a stint put in in Nov. 09.

His first wife had several affairs on him, not sure of the year they got divorced, maybe 1988? His parents both died in the early 50's in the early 1990's so maybe it really started there? We got married in 1994. I have never heard of anything that may have happened in H's childhood that would have traumatized him.


I am really concerned that if this started years ago that he may never really come out of that tunnel...thanks for taking the time to look!