Am I in the right place? Need advice and support.

[Clife]

Hi,
I've been following these boards for about 6mnths. I did post something in newcomers way back but was so overwhelmed i couldn't continue.
At my most optimistic I think everything will eventually turn out ok but then i get my dark moments (more often than not) and feel like i'm the lowest of the low.

My background, in as brief as i can make it:I've been married for 17 years and for the last 9 years my H has been working away from home during the week and returning home of a weekend.
This worked for quite a while but the last 5 years has been tough-money, illness and job worries has played a part in our sitch.
About a year before my H was seriously ill I began to feel isolated and lonely. I'd always supported him in his career and am very proud of the strides he's made but i stupidly didn't always voice my worries because my H never liked confrontation or negativity.When i said several times please take time out to spend time with me, the 3 children and help me do the major things in the house he would always say 'yes i will' but nothing would ever materialize. My resentment built, but I felt I couldn't voice it too much as we were always in the thick of something or other.
We had several lows but never enough for him to finally sit up and take notice. All I ever wanted was for him to stop obsessively going on his computer as soon as he hit the door and to notice we existed. To listen and want to spend time with me and the children. But i always justified it with , 'he's been ill', 'he's worried about finances' etc. I hated making waves. And I suppose I really wanted him to make changes because he wanted to be with me.
I know he loved us but it didn't always feel like he did.
I'm ashamed to say that i eventually met a man who actually listened to me, wanted to be with me and i told my H i wanted to separate.
Even when I was telling him I knew I still loved him but there was something that said 'he will never change enough to make u happy'.
I now just wish I had listened to my inner voice that was saying please don't do this, he doesn't need to change, YOU do.
If I had made the changes to myself without going outside the marriage I know he would have followed because i would have been a happier person. Does that make sense?
My relationship with the OM lasted 10 wks, when i reached an all time low, knowing what i really wanted was for my H to 'want' me back again. I desperately wanted my best friend.The best friend you once had but lost sight of.

Anyway, sorry this is so long and probably doesn't make too much sense. I know for sure it misses out so many details.Its been a very long few months.
My H never left the house at the weekends. He refuses to 'talk' about the relationship but doesn't seem to want to leave permanantly, yet whenever I ask 'what is he thinking of doing', he replies he doesn't know. I used to be in tears when i asked but i've now become much more rational. I cry a hell of a lot, but try to shield myself from him.

2wks ago i said he needs to make his mind up and decide if he either wants to work really hard at our marriage or Find somewhere else to live. I said we could sell our house and sort it out that way etc. He said he would make time to give it some thought. He came home last weekend and never mentioned it but came up to 'my' bedroom(he sleeps on the sofa) and got into bed with me, he does this when it suits him, when he needs me i hope, does this mean he does love me or am i being naive?.
I am always so grateful that he comes to me that I am so upset when he doesn't the next night and then find i can't face him and tend to hide in my room all Sunday. I know its pathetic and i so want to snap out of my lethargy.. I tend to relieve him, theres no LM as such. My closest friends and sister tell me to stop doing this but i really want to atone for what i've done and make him happy. But when he gets up and leaves I feel worse than ever.

I love him. How can I make things better? can I make things better? Or will he never forgive me?

Theres so much left out i'm afraid, as it would take forever to read.. I just know there are some very wise people on this board and I know I will not be favourable because i've caused my H so much hurt but I really want to put our family back , because I love him so very much and my children deserve the best we can give them.
I'm on meds for depression at the moment ,but i know i should have been on them at least 4 yrs ago. I guess i never wanted to admit i was that low. Which of course is really stupid now I see.

Thanks for wading through this mess of mine. I hope someone can give me some insight as how to proceed. Or if indeed i am really in piecing at all.
Clife

[Onthemountaintop]

THESE ARE JUST MY THOUGHTS from what I read, Clife, so read with that understanding.

2wks ago i said he needs to make his mind up and decide if he either wants to work really hard at our marriage or Find somewhere else to live.

If I had left my H, my M would've been over for sure. My W did ask me to leave, but I refused. We separated in the same house. It was much easier on the kids, plus over the months, I began realizing she does love me. Reading books like, "improve your marriage without talking about it" helped put some DB things in perspective for me, and gave me a lot more hope.

Things aren't solved yet, but for your sitch, I wonder if:
- kicking him out will help at all. You were in the affair, not him. I'd guess he'd just get angrier with you, not closer. He probably expects that the miniute he leaves, he'll be paying for you to go out with this OM. Why would he work on a R with someone who hasn't got 100% of her heart on him?
- the DB books suggest that saying "I love you" is sometimes more of a problem during these times. I'd agree. When my W said it, but I couldn't reply, it was just like in the books - I only felt guilt.
- I gave my W some ultimatums over our separation, which to me was more of a boundary than ultimatum. I told her she needed IC for her self-esteem. I also told her I wanted her to accept that sometimes, I would not talk about R problems if I felt she was being rude/criticising. I told her she needed to accept that I needed some time. What boundaries could you set that would be to help pull you together?

I go on the computer a lot, too. The book I mentioned helped me understand how she (or you) might feel when that happens. Still, she will have to accept, as you might, that reductions can happen, boundaries can too, but they need to come from the one with the problem. You can ask, but it is up to him or I to do the change.

Side note - if your on antidepressants, do you know how they affect your decisions with your H? Later in life, you can end the meds, but a D can not be undone.

You said that you love your H. The DB techniques I've read about seem to say that if you want your M, you need to leave things that are wrecking your M behind. THEN, over time, he will, too.

I completely understand that leaving the OM for your H seems like a waste if you think your M can't survive.

But, I doubt there are very many men that will be a 2nd place keeper. You really need to end the OM connection, and tell you H, if you want your M to have any hope. Even if you didn't tell him the details, they will eventually ruin your M if you try to have both plates of cake.

[Clife]

Thank you so much for taking the time to reply,

I met the OM in April 09 and we had a 10week relationship. I told my H 2wks after i met this OM the truth. He never moved out because he only came back at weekends, and i know it had to be very painful for him but at the time he showed no emotion as is his usual behaviour and i thought he simply didn't care. Of course this wasn't true but even now he refuses to discuss anything to do with our marriage. He has never wanted to confront issues in our marriage past and present.
It is very hard to have a marriage in these circumstances. Issues need discussing or how else can they be resolved, and isn't that what a partnership is all about?

I do not see the OM, i have no desire to and i regret it with all my heart. I've told my h this and i also try to tell him what he means to me, i show remorse and i try to behave in the way i think he responds to. In effect i'm confused as to how or what he wants as he never tells me.
Yesterday morning he came up and got into bed with me, and tonight he's sleeping on the sofa again.
When i said make up his mind i was talking from a place of hurt. I feel used but i also relish the moments we spend together.
I guess i just wish i could get inside his head to know what his thoughts are. Am i doing the right thing in allowing him to come and go from my bed with no word or hint of the future. He always makes it sound like we have no future, so why does he keep comomg to me for sex. And not love making in the real sense?
This has been going on for 6mnths now. I'm completely worn out by it all and im sure he is too.
Sorry another long post!

[Clife]

Well today has been no different from the last 3 Sundays...my H sleeping on the sofa, me upstairs trying to get to sleep but failing. And then staying in my bedroom because i assume he doesn't want me around. A silly cycle but im not sure how to break the habit now.

Oh but the big difference this weekend was our oven set on fire! I'd put it out but not before i'd already called the fire brigade. I said it was out but the operator said she had to send someone to check it out. Well drama, not one but two trucks turned up and my children were beside themselves to see 2 trucks flashing blue lights outside our house!! Of course i was mortified...and apologised profusely.

My H text from his journey back to Belgium to see if i needed a new oven!

Anyway from what my MIL has said, he text her to say he's been trying to be ok at the weekends but somethings changed. She has no idea what he meant but I'm thinking he has neared the end of the road and wants to leave the home.

I will be devastated that my stupid actions have brought us to this place.
Can anyone advise me on how to proceed. Please.

[Onthemountaintop]

Well, don't do the same thing you used to do if it didn't work. You mentioned your comment that was in anger - did you apologize for that?

Now you mentioned apologizing in other times, I've heard others say that you need to be strong, not pursuing. To me, that means you apologize for mistakes, but you leave it with that instead of bringing it up again and again (if you are doing that).

You said you 'assume he doesn't want me around'. Maybe he doesn't. I wouldn't work on assumptions.

Have you read the book I mentioned and the DB books? I got mine from a library...saved a bundle that way (:

When you said R with this guy, do you mean physical or was it just going out on a date. His travel may have led to your feelings, but it is good to see you regret it - marriage is based on trust, I think. Regardless of what you do, PA or EA, he needs to feel he can trust you in a R way. The oven was just an oven.

[Clife]

Hi Onthemountaintop,
Thanks for replying, how are you?

My comment to my H about making a real effort to work on our marriage or to finally think about making the separation real, came from sadness not anger. I've not felt angry for a very long time-guilt and just that i see things differently now has dissolved all of my resentment from the past.

I would rather stay with my H and work on the things that brought us to this sad stage than live without him and pull our family apart.

My H has been working away from home for 9 years-not coming home until the weekend. Its taken its toll. Especially as he became so immersed in work he would continue once he came home, almost as soon as he hit the door. Can you imagine how that felt?

I would wait all week to see him then he would get his laptop out and i was invisible. I would talk, he would flick his eyes up, repeat what id said, get it wrong and simply go back to his work. I gave up in the end. I would go and spend time with the children instead.
I asked many times for him to spend time with the children, to forge a better relationship with our S(15) whose resentment of his dad was growing.
There were many things that contributed to my wanting to separate and i would try to get him to discuss these things but he buried his head in the sand.
I eventually broke down and said i couldn't cope anymore with anything. He comforted me for that day, went off to work and it was never mentioned again.
I am dealing with a man who cannot display his emotions even when its vital.

I had already mentioned separating before i met OM. Its no excuse, but he cycled into the playgound with his daughter and we got chatting. He knew i was vulnerable and in hindsight i should have run a mile but i was taken in with tales of sorrow over his divorce, the closeness he shared with his daughter and the way he talked and talked. It was refreshing and i felt soothed with the attention.

I was stupid. Very very stupid. I only wish i had found these boards and the books before i had become 'hypnotised' by this mans attention.
My situation is different from many on here in that I was the WAW that now wants to piece her M back together.

Some good things have come out of this situation. My H spends lots of time with the children, S(15) feels easy in his company and we ALL go out together most weekends.
But what im finding hard is the limboland. My H acts like he wants me-he gives me huge cuddles when he gets home, at his own instigation. Yet some nights he comes up to 'see' me and others he won't go near me. This i could handle if i knew we were 'in piecing' but not being 'allowed' to discuss anything other than superficial things but still having 'sex' is making my mind spin, and confusion causes me to get things out of proportion.

Sorry for the essay. As you can see im all over the place right now, and simply want to help my H to heal from his pain, that ive caused us.
I hate myself, and this is not helping me to move forward and 'do' what is not working. I wish he would talk to someone instead of shutting everything out.
i'm hanging in for the long haul, as i should. Its the most important thing ive ever had to do. I want to stay positive.But its hard.

[Onthemountaintop]

Hi there, Clife! Considering I'm here on these boards, I'm doing pretty good. I married into a marriage without love from the start, and now I'm feeling a tiny bit that I've never felt with my W, things are looking up~ In my sitch, I'm the one that might leave, but while my W isn't doing a whole lot to change, I'm trying. I may leave, but only if I'm sure that I couldn't get far enough. So I guess I'm saying that my perspective might be different than others.

My comment to my H about making a real effort to work on our marriage or to finally think about making the separation real

Did you take the comment back - did you say you were feeling sad, but that you don't want him to go? My W tried that, and I almost left. IF I had, the marriage would be over in my case, but for others that might not be so, but it often is.

Can you imagine how that felt?

Yes. Because I did that. That is part of being a guy, that is part of being unfulfilled in a R. That is a part of being ashamed of a current situation. That is part of a concern for a job succeding. That is part of meeting the God given nature of a man - to provide. It feels bad for 5-15 min, but then distractions lead your thoughts from your kids & spouse.

When my R was doing better, I spent a lot less time on my laptop. I've been asked how did I stay for 11yrs when I wasn't happy - easy - I have kids to provide for and now that they are no longer toddlers, I feel I can move on IF I have to. I certainly don't want to, but I can't be a good enough husband to someone I care for, have sex with, but that is all.

Here are some 180s that I know would work with me re the computer...

Try a "180"...go sit with your H, hug him, and HELP him work on his laptop. Help him feel comfortable. After a few days like (or the next weekend), see if he seems open to you sharing with him what he's doing. Make him feel valued for his dedication to work, or curiosity, or whatever he gets out off the internet. YOU won't get your needs met this way, but he will get his. That allows him to put guiltless energy into you.

Another 180? Don't tell him to play with the kids. Let him feel that HE is missing out. He may not. You said he is already playing with the kids more. This isnt' because you might separate, this is because he's enjoying it. If he was faking, or experimenting with play, you'd probably notice. When my W asks me to play with the kids, I resent THAT. It's like saying that I don't know better. It might be right, but it doesn't feel good. We aren't women, we're men. "Treat men differently than you would a girlfriend" was in one book I read. I think that is very, very true.

I hate R talks when my W starts it. She is often emotional, or angry, when she does. What about you? Why even talk about it - act better/differently instead. A wheel that doesn't fit will never fit. Why use the same wheel?

He comforted me for that day, went off to work and it was never mentioned again. I am dealing with a man who cannot display his emotions even when its vital.

He did, Clife! He just didn't do it the way you wanted him to.

I had already mentioned separating before i met OM. Its no excuse, but he cycled into the playgound with his daughter and we got chatting.

If you told your H what you said, then he likely didn't hear remorse in it. He heard, "It's your fault, jacka**" Infatuations are sudden emotional rushes - why wouldn't you feel good? You're supposed to. Or better, you're supposed to avoid getting that close. He divorced. Now he's going to do the same to you? I can't tell you how to feel, but as man, I hate the OM already! He knew you were married, but still went after you to destroy your marriage as his had been. It is too bad you didn't hate him. Your H would be proud of you for it.

He might want to separate to get you to get your head on straight. Why not suggest an in-house separation, instead. It is easier for him with all his travel, and not as hard on the kids. PLUS, if you are doing 180s, he has a chance to see why you are worth his effort...

Limboland...I'm there. One day my W pressured me to get out and make a choice. To not touch her, etc. That made it so much easier to run away from my M. Let him be in limboland all he needs. YOU had the affair, not him. He wasn't a great H for meeting your needs, but he's changing you said.

Give him your patience - he needs it. You need it, too, so you don't make rash decisions.

Men have sexual needs. Would you rather he gets it somewhere else? The best sex I've had was after my W and I partly ended our separation. Since then, not so much. But, it gives me one more reason to work on our M. Had I never touched her, well it was pretty bad last year, so that is what I remembered.

I don't think you are all over. I think you want him to change what made you unsatisfied. He can. Maybe not now. You asked him to leave, and he agreed. Now, you need to not pursue, but ask yourself those tough questions and make life changes. When he sees the you he feel in love with, he'll get that hormone rush too, and will be much more able to do a deep relationship talk.

Side note - who can love someone who hates themself? Hate what you've done. Let him know you hate it, not you hate you.

Good luck, Clife.

[Clife]

Thanks so much Onthemountaintop!

That was such a well thought out response and i really appreciate it! You have given me so much to think about, and in a good constructive way too.

You're right, i need to let him be in 'limboland' for as long as he needs. I may have 'seen the light' as far as our marriage is concerned but he will need to get over my betrayal before he can make any decisions regarding our M.

Its not easy being patient. My sister has always said i'm the hare and my H is the tortoise. I guess i want what most people want, a very happy M with the partner i love. And to do that i want him to heal quicker which is unfair as he has to heal at his own pace.
Thank you, you have put into perspective something i have been struggling with today.

I did text him and ask what he wanted me to do to make his stress levels easier. Would he like me to go away this weekend so that he can have the children and think about things without me there. It would also give me the space to cut out the cycle of sex on the friday, and me feeling left and alone on the saturday evening. Just a thought.

I don't need to prompt him anymore to be with the children, he readily keeps them company now. Which is a complete 180 for him.
But he will not spend any time alone with me, apart from occasional 'visits' to my bed.
I asked him the other day if he wanted company on a short shopping trip and he shrugged and said not really. I was crushed, which sent me on a downward spiral.
He also never sits next to me on the sofa, he would rather stand if there are no other seats. So me sitting next to him to help with his work would not work at the moment. But i did think a while back that thats what i would do in the future, so we are thinking on the same lines there!

I always say i don't want him to leave but if he feels he doesn't want to be with me anymore then he should leave. But i stress that that is NOT what i want.I love him and i always tell him that, but as you said before maybe he feels guilty at the moment because he cannot say it back. So i should stop saying it. I suppose i say it because I was the one walking away, saying my love for him wasn't the same anymore. I want him to feel valued and loved. I'm not sure what else i can do on that score as im always trying to make him feel loved. I worry that if i do a 180 on that it would be going backward to before my affair. Confused on that. Are the rules different for the WAW who is now trying to piece?

Is your sitch on here somewhere? Why was your relationship loveless from the start? And whose side was that on? That would be a very hard life to lead unless you fell in love over time. But you did say things are looking up, I hope they continue to do so.

Thanks 4 your insight on my sitch, its been helpful.Goodluck to you too.

[Onthemountaintop]

Would he like me to go away this weekend so that he can have the children and think about things without me there.

I read in one book that sex is the thing you promise to always give and try to enjoy by getting married. You do not want him going elsewhere when in Belgium, so why not try to enjoy it or spice it up? Show him that you are looking to love him, not any OM who tries to steal you.

But he will not spend any time alone with me, apart from occasional 'visits' to my bed. I asked him the other day if he wanted company on a short shopping trip and he shrugged and said not really. I was crushed, which sent me on a downward spiral.

I can't say I haven't done that, either. Just remember, he probably didn't want to hurt you by it, but you did suggest he separated from you, so why shouldn't he get used to the idea? Asking to go with him is pursuing...a kind of 'begging'. Maybe, if it comes up again, try something like, "I had xyz to buy as well. I can go later, but if you are OK with a small detour we could save some gas" ... and then try to have fun on the trip.

He also never sits next to me on the sofa, he would rather stand if there are no other seats.

But you sitting with him is the 180, not having him sit with you. Sooo many times, my W has been really upset because I don't sit to have tea with her. I recongize that I could've tried, but I just didn't want to. Now I know some of the causes and have sat with her more often. My 180... She still never comes to hug me or anything while I work. I guess what I'm trying to say in my verbose way, is that your tortoise might like you coming to him. If you sat down, put your hand on his knee or whatever you might do, said nothing except words of support for what he's doing/not trying to distract him, he might get up and leave. BUT...then he'll be thinking about your choice. If you have hate for his action, this might not be the best. It is a risk. Do it if your heart is in it.

I always say i don't want him to leave but if he feels he doesn't want to be with me anymore then he should leave.

Let HIM decide that on his own. Did you tell him you don't want a separation and that your words were just overrun sadness and remorse for the sitch you (and he) got yourselves into? That you've been re-evaluating a lot.

I think, not know, that the "rules" don't exist. The author and other similar minded authors speak of various angles to meet a goal, not a step-by-step do it my way or are you listening. You need to do what feels like it is succeeding. You do not need to stay in a bad marriage, but you want to make a wonderful marriage with this man. Why not put your full effort and be willing to risk a lot to try and get there? Right now, he's living with you. This gives you a chance to back off the stuff that didn't work, while doing a couple 180s that show him you are working to make long-term changes. His job is just to notice it and God willing, he'll find the heart to forgive, ignore your backslides, and move on with you in his life.

As far as mine, it is here . Caution - there are things that I said that were just venting, but as I've found a better connection to my W, my point of view is changing. The only common theme is that it really was and to a large extent is a one-sided love R. She loves me, but had problems showing it. Now, I feel something more than caring, but not enough to be able to say ILY to her. Rough for her, eh....

[Wholeagain]

Hi Clife,

I have not read your thread very thoroughly, but this is what jumps at me.

Stop guilt ridden behaviour. Feeling guilty is not making any good for you, your H or children. Making consistent changes does.

Give lovingly. If you cannot do something without expecting something in return, don't do it. It only builds resentment.

No R talk. Don't demand anything.

Let go of resentment. Resentment leads to entitlement which leads to excuses not to change.

Don't be afraid to D.

Pardon my grammar. Hope it helps.