trying4years...I haven't read the book you mentioned but it has been discussed on this forum in the past. You say you read it, what did you glean from it?
You also said: "And then since I haven't been able to have good sex which allows me to actually feel 'connected', how am I supposed to be able to sense and read what is wanted? I always found I can read, and sense what my W wants so much better _after_ we have ML..."
This is hard to explain/describe...but what a lot of women want is for the man to TAKE what he NATURALLY wants. Therefore, she doesn't actually want to tell him what SHE wants, what she wants is for him to TAKE what HE wants. She knows instinctively that if HE TAKES what he NATURALLY wants, she will be sexually turned on by it. Once she gets to the point of being fully sexually turned on and really getting into sex with him, THEN she will be more likely to start stating things she wants..."oh yes, I love it when you do this or that" is something that she doesn't want to say and have it be HIS focus. She wants HIS focus to be on what HE NATURALLY wants.
I keep putting NATURALLY in all caps because what a man NATURALLY wants is usually very primal and somewhat agressively sexual. When a man is going for what he UNnaturally wants, it is usually all focused on HER pleasure.
I know it is counter intuitive. I know it is hard to understand. But the biggest point I want to make is for YOU as a MAN to look within yourself and find your raw sexual desires...and then GO AFTER her with that desire. THIS IS WHAT SHE WANTS. She doesn't want you asking her what SHE wants sexually. She wants you to know and feel your burning sexual desire and then to take her, as your sexual mate. This would be the natural process. Her telling you "oh, first kiss me, then hold me, then undress me" etc, is NOT NATURAL.
Those types of open conversations are more likely to happen AFTER you FIRST exhibit some alpha male behaviors, and then she can tell you more things about her specific desires because THEN she can trust that you are first and foremost thinking of YOUR pleasure.
I've just logged in after a week or so away, and I'm going to engage in this question before I read the rest of the responses (so my answer isn't clouded).
OMG ... that is such a simple question. I want a man who knows what he's doing and isn't afraid to do it. There is nothing worse than feeling like your doing some bloke a favour. (and frankly that's what it feels like when you sleep with someone who isn't sexually dominant or at least confident enough to be sexually dominant).
Having said that - misogynists are a huge turn off - and there are men who tend to act dominant in order to hide the fact that they’re not that fond of women. You can tell who they are, because they’re not very good in bed. They are out for themselves and have few skills in sensuality.
There’s another caveat – a sexually confident man isn’t afraid to allow space for his woman to be the dominant partner from time to time – that’s fun and cute and provides variety that’s essential for a fulfilling sexual relationship.
Now if I could only get the partnership and intimacy part right …..
I’m learning girls, I’m learning!!!
V
Never make someone a priority, who makes you an option.
Mmmmm - I've got a couple of "alpha" male staff ... and it's true that you have to manage them ... but they are very effective at what they do if you give them their head to do it.
I wouldn't swap them for the world, they provide balance to an otherwise technical team and I value the charisma and energy they bring to the workplace.
Of course in the workplace it's important to maintain appropriate boundaries and if they ever overstepped those I'd absolutely discipline them (no pun intended), but they're too valueable to "sack their ar$e".
V
Never make someone a priority, who makes you an option.
Remember that women don't just work for men, but also with them, and as their supervisor. If the alpha were my boss, it would be easier to take. If I were his boss . . . I'd probably be firing his alpha a*s.
Mmmmm - I've got a couple of "alpha" male staff ... and it's true that you have to manage them ... but they are very effective at what they do if you give them their head to do it.
I wouldn't swap them for the world, they provide balance to an otherwise technical team and I value the charisma and energy they bring to the workplace.
Of course in the workplace it's important to maintain appropriate boundaries and if they ever overstepped those I'd absolutely discipline them (no pun intended), but they're too valuable to "sack their ar$e".
V
Never make someone a priority, who makes you an option.
Sexual abuse history can obviously complicate a desire to be physically dominated.
That's an excuse that's convenient for you to exuse the difficulties yo have in your relationship. There is a very big difference between a man who is sexually confident and loves you - than a misogynst, dysfunctional abuser.
It also demonstrates that you don't understand the difference between being sexually dominant in a mature, mutually signficant sexual relationship and being "dominant" in a whip me, beat me, love me context. Huge difference my friend, huge diference - and all women, abused or not, can tell the difference.
V
Never make someone a priority, who makes you an option.
trying4years...I haven't read the book you mentioned but it has been discussed on this forum in the past. You say you read it, what did you glean from it? ... DQ
Thanks for replying DQ, I do have great respect for your ideas from posts I have read over the years!
What I gleaned from it is that some (or all?) women want their man to be dominant in bed. They want them to take them and ML to them and F them until they are tired and then put them up wet. I will have to pull the book out and review it. I do remember that this particular book stressed this behavior was wanted in the bedroom only, not outside of it.
I have also read many of the good books recommended here, several of Micheles, NMMNG, His needs her needs, several of Snarchs books (I remember really liking PM I think it was...)
What I personally have trouble with, is my W included in this group or not? How can I figure this out when my DW (who is normally so talkative and has such strong opinions about every topic in the whole world, except this one?) clams up so tight and will not discuss these things with me? If she will not talk about it, and I can understand for a woman it is NORMAL :> not to talk about it, what means of sensing and knowing can I use to figure this out myself?
I am also still interested, are there any ladies who do not want a alpha male in the bedroom? And if so, in what way do you communicate that to your DH?
...........What I personally have trouble with, is my W included in this group or not? How can I figure this out when my DW (who is normally so talkative and has such strong opinions about every topic in the whole world, except this one?) clams up so tight and will not discuss these things with me? If she will not talk about it, and I can understand for a woman it is NORMAL :> not to talk about it, what means of sensing and knowing can I use to figure this out myself?
One thing that I have learned from some recent therapy is that my wife gets flooded with emotion at the thought of certain sexual topics/acts. By this I mean that she gets herself into what is near a panic attack and can not really hear what I am saying/asking, cannot rationally think, and emotionally shuts down and wants to withdraw.
Some of the things that cause this emotional "flooding" and agitation are disucssions on sexual frequency, oral sex, doggie style, wearing something sexy to bed, doing a strip tease for me, touching my penis, and a host of "other sex-realted acts" that are triggered by a very inhibited sexual upbringing. When she is in one of these moods the best thing that I can do is just hold her in a non-sexual way and try to calm her or let her withdraw and be by herself.
While some might argue for a man to sexually take what he NATURALLY needs, if I tried to force my wife into doggie style sex, which is something I would really like to do someday and a NATURAL need of mine, it would probably be much akin to rape and emotinal torture to my wife.
AN OPEN QUESTION TO DQ, WALKING, et al?
As someone who is in a SSM and NEEDS more sex (to prevent my initiating a divorce), but can't really talk about sexual frequency and can't really take what he NATURALLY wants and needs....what options do I have, but to be the "considerate/consulting" lover? Or act in the bedroom as a non-alpha male (even if everyone I work with thinks of me as an alpha male)?
My greatest sexual success has lately been after slavishly providing my wife with 30 to 45 minute foot massages, followed by back massage, followed by kissing and foreplay that results in her pulling me onto her for missionary position sex. Most other things just don't seem to work and variety of sexual positions does not seem to be an option. My wife has repeatedly told our sex therapist that genitals are "dirty" and not to be touched, which drives both the therapist and myself into jaw-clenching silence. The sex therapist has tried to talk to her about that, but not gotten anywhere with it.
The reason for my post is that some of us in the SSM forum are trying as best we can to cope with some really heavy lifting in our relationships/marriages. Not all wives (spouses) are as capable of ML as some.
>43 years of marriage--My wife and I are now closer than we have been in decades. I believe that my SSM is over.
"How can I figure this out when my DW (who is normally so talkative and has such strong opinions about every topic in the whole world, except this one?) clams up so tight and will not discuss these things with me? If she will not talk about it, and I can understand for a woman it is NORMAL :> not to talk about it, what means of sensing and knowing can I use to figure this out myself?"
"My wife has repeatedly told our sex therapist that genitals are "dirty" and not to be touched, which drives both the therapist and myself into jaw-clenching silence. The sex therapist has tried to talk to her about that, but not gotten anywhere with it."
The above are quotes by trying and young about their W's.
To both of you guys (and also indirectly to ssmguy)...I don't know if you can apply the usual "rules" to a woman who is severely sexually damaged or stunted. The same way that we women cannot aply the normal relationship rules to a man who is a confirmed committmentphobe or who has full on narcissistic tendancies or a drug problem or....fill in the blank.
If a woman OR a man is simply too far off the scale of normal for whatever reason, then I just don't know if the advice here on this thread will be relevant to them.
Young you specifically asked: "As someone who is in a SSM and NEEDS more sex (to prevent my initiating a divorce), but can't really talk about sexual frequency and can't really take what he NATURALLY wants and needs....what options do I have, but to be the "considerate/consulting" lover?"
I just don't see you having many options other than to leave, or to go without. You say that being the considerate/consulting lover appears to be your only option...yet that option is not providing you with any "great" results, as far as I can tell. You simply have to think it over and decide for yourself: is it really a NEED of yours, or would you rather stay married to this particular woman?
I don't envy your position. Remember...I am divorced, so eventually my NEED (and yes it truly is a need) made itself clear to me and I could not accept my marriage the way it was. I don't want anyone else to ever have to face that decision as it was the hardest of my life...however, yes a good sex life is a NEED of mine and it won out over my love for my ex-h and my desire to stay married to HIM in particular.
The only one thing I can say is please NEVER become unfaithful, as that is NOT the right route (learned this the hard way and am contiually trying to get ssmguy to realize he has made the wrong choice there, too).
The only dignified options are to stay married and accept your fate, or leave and try for a different life. I am sorry it comes down to that and it such a difficult choice.
Trying you asked: "I am also still interested, are there any ladies who do not want a alpha male in the bedroom? And if so, in what way do you communicate that to your DH?"
I think on this particular thread, not one woman responded that she didn't at least want a man with the potential to show alpha male behavior in the bedroom.
The only women I have known personally who would have said specifically that they would not want an alpha male in the bedroom were either lesbians (and even they want one once in awhile), or women whose sexual fetish was about being full-on in charge and dominating a man. Usually, these types of women are just working through a sexual lifestyle, though. This is not a usual woman in her usual desires. This would be a woman who is living out a specific lifestyle, not just a sexual preference. There is a difference.
But then there is the other category I spoke of at the beginning of this thread...the "damaged" woman . Yes, a damaged woman may not want a man with alpha male behaviors in bed because it may trigger some kind of trauma to her, or she may have grown up believing bad things about this type of man. I don't think we can apply these "usual" rules to a woman like that.
The question is, is your wife damaged sexually in some way?
Sexual abuse history can obviously complicate a desire to be physically dominated.
That's an excuse that's convenient for you to exuse the difficulties yo have in your relationship. There is a very big difference between a man who is sexually confident and loves you - than a misogynst, dysfunctional abuser.
It also demonstrates that you don't understand the difference between being sexually dominant in a mature, mutually signficant sexual relationship and being "dominant" in a whip me, beat me, love me context. Huge difference my friend, huge diference - and all women, abused or not, can tell the difference.
That is about the most toxic, intolerant, and just plain fu.ck.ing wrong thing I have ever read on this forum. You owe every sexually-abused woman (and man) on the planet who may not be able to "tell the difference" an apology.
Or maybe you'd rather snark at returned soldiers who freak out when a car backfires, too.
Last edited by Kettricken; 02/27/1006:00 PM.
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