Struggling with Hope

[ericmsant2]

Thanks Mach -

Seeing these things in me really help me to understand the work that i need to do. How does is affect me - I guess the only thing that I can say is a "realization" of what I need to work on is in a way a good feeling.

Yes I can see how I got lost in my M. I can see it very clearly now. The challenge for me will be how to fix it..or if will deal with it.

In terms of coulda/shoulda/woulda - I am working on doing some of these things. The first being the best dad that I can be. The other stuff will take time. Some will require resources ($$) and some additional soul searching.

Yes now is my time...now is my time.

Thank you for your kind words Mach. Thank you. I am sure that other on this board are going thru pain and suffering but as someone once said to me..err..wrote to me It is from this pain that will emerge a new man. A new person.

For others that may be reading my thread...look hard at yourself..search deep...you will find what you need to work on. But you have to be willing to really be honest with yourself. Our S know us like no one else - they can really see if the change is for you. This may not change your outcome but it will change you. Know that you will be stronger!

I look forward to additional feedback.

[Lostforwords]

It would happen....bravo for you not blaming everything on something else. That was the first step....the second step was listening...the third step was looking inside.....that step brings the first big reward which you just got.

Well done! Now put it to work

[Mach1]

Lost,

Are you sayin that Eric might just be the reward for himself ?

< gasp >

What a thought !!!

Thanks for your input as well Lost....

[ericmsant2]

Mach / Lost - Yeah...can one of you please explain the reward thing to me. Sorry I'm a little slow

[ericmsant2]

All -

Everyone has spoken to me about GAL'ing, detaching, goals, etc. With a MLCer do I also need to set boundaries? In my sitch right now I'm not sure if I am not doing something that I should be doing.

Lost - I read some your sitch...I hope to get to the point where you are where it appears that things just may be turning around for you.

[cat04]

All -

Everyone has spoken to me about GAL'ing, detaching, goals, etc. With a MLCer do I also need to set boundaries? In my sitch right now I'm not sure if I am not doing something that I should be doing.

Eric,

Boundaries are for you. For your sanity. They can be used to stop the cycling.

However, they can be difficult to set, and you have to be ready to reinforce your boundaries once you set them or your MLCer will not take you seriously.

When the time comes to set one, you will know...

[Lostforwords]

Eric,

The reward-In between stimulus and reaction there is a gap (for lack of better terms). In this gap there are two things-Growth and happiness. To stay in this gap one NEEDS to be very self-actualized...understand how their actions impact those around them...and understand that they need to grow more and how to do it. In Buddhism it is referred to as "The middle way"....I know it is hard for you to see it, but Mach and I can see it in you....you have started to get into this gap...and being there is your first reward.

Once you get to this spot...your reactions to stimuli will be different. Yes...I know this is deep crud, but it is the truth. You will accept what you can and cannot control....make sense?

Eric-Turned around...yes....but I also know, as others will tell you, that my marriage and I will continually be a work in progress. You will see it at some point....just because my wife wants to rebuild our marriage doesn't mean that my work has ended....instead it means it has only begun.

If you are unsure about something...the best course of action is to wait until you are sure. As Cat said...you will know when it is time to set a boundary...until you reach that point setting boundaries is fruitless. Let's say you saw a burning building with some one inside and a hose outside. Would you;

A-Run inside without thinking or the hose to save the person?
B-Grab the hose, but rush in and forget to turn it on?
C-Grab the hose, take two seconds to turn it on, and then go inside?

We will help you see the hose, right now you are taking your two seconds to make sure it is on.

[ericmsant2]

Good afternoon everyone

An interesting night last night with W and the family. Before I get into the details I would like to thank the two people that i spoke to last night (u know who u r). A heart felt thank you.

Okay on the details...the past few days, my oldest son (16) has been very and I mean very distant toward me. He barely speaks to me and appear very angry at me. Some of this can be attributed to him being a teenager and some to I think the whole situation. You see W was and still is a great mom. She is very attached to the boys and them to her. I on the other hand was a pretty detached dad for a VERY long time. I have changed this behavior and am not trying to be the best dad I can be. My oldest however, has wanted to see the old dad back (the one who was distant and drank often). I explained to him that I am still the old dad but that something about me have changed. I think he is really struggling with the change. So last night not a word from him - when the W comes home he is so happy that they sit and chat for a while...laughing, joking, etc. I was upstairs pretty depressed. Asking myself why can't I have this type of R with him. Jump to this morning...

W was off today and I decided to ask her if she knew what was going on with S. I asked if he had spoken to her or if she had spoken to him. I could tell that she was trying to hold back but she finally said that he complained about me to her. Personally, I feel that she is trying to have them side with her but then again it could be my own issue. I told her that she and I needed to set apart maybe a little time once a week to get schedules in line. She reluctanly agreed. I also said that I understood what she was going thru and that I really was doing my best to give her the space that she needs. I told her that I realized that I the journey that she is on is one that I could not help with but that she should know that I will always be there for her should she ever want to talk. I also said that I will be her friend and understood that she has difficulty with this right now. She agreed that she has difficulty with me being her friend. Okay I hope one of you will point out what I probably did wrong here.

I also found out that she has opened her own bank account. She is clearly in the replay stage of MLC and I wonder how long, if at all, will she move from this stage. I also told her that I cannot control her that she is her own person and that she do what she wants to do. I told her that I understood what she is going thru (although I did not mention MLC).

How did i do? In terms of our conversation on Wednesday to discuss the kids...any suggestions? Here are my discussion points...

1) Can we agree to sit every Wednesday and discuss the upcoming schedule re: the kids. I will reaffirm that our discussion should be centered around the kids and not us.

2) Can we agree that if any of the kids mention something to us about one of us that we will share the information with each other.

3) Can we agree not to suggest that either of us are going thru our own "issues".

4) Can we agree to keep things as normal as possible for the kids. For example do not bring up D?

5) Can we agree that before we start telling the kids to do thing i.e. you guys now have to do your laundry, etc. that we should discuss it first so that we are both on the same page.

In short, what I am trying to do is to make sure that both of us follow the same set of rules regarding the kids. Although I do not want to mention the D I do want to know if she is amendable to giving my the kids half the time. Thoughts on this?

Finally, her and I are in the same house and in the same bed. Due to the logistics (I take my D to the bus stop - make dinner - her job schedule is not set) it make sence for me to stay in the house. My question is...I believe this is slowing the process down. What can I do to change this? Oh..by the way I did ask her to let me know if she needed anything else from me that will give her more of the space that she needs. Was this a good question.

Eric

[smith18]

I told her that I realized that I the journey that she is on is one that I could not help with but that she should know that I will always be there for her should she ever want to talk.

I also said that I will be her friend and understood that she has difficulty with this right now

Here are my discussion points...

I did ask her to let me know if she needed anything else from me that will give her more of the space that she needs.

Although I do not want to mention the D I do want to know if she is amendable to giving my the kids half the time.

You cant be telling her or asking her such things. Especially hypothetical things that might be related to a D. Some of those things you are talking about seem a bit controllling. Your marriage is doomed if you continue to worry and talk too much R talk with your wife.

ACTIONS MAN!

Here are some lists/ideas I gathered from this site when I was in your shoes...

1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore!
2. No frequent phone calls
3. Do not point out good points in marriage
4. Do not follow him around the house
5. Do not encourage talk about the future
6. Do not ask for help from family members
7. Do not ask for reassurances
8. Do not buy gifts
9. Do not schedule dates together
10. Do not spy on spouse
11. Do not say "I Love You"
12. Act as if you are moving on with your life
13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive
14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse – get busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends, etc.
15. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words
16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse his whereabouts, ASK NOTHING
17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse
18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what he will be missing
19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Show him someone he would want to be around.
20. All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while)
21. Never lose your cool
22. Don't be overly enthusiastic
23. Do not argue about how he feels (it only makes their feelings stronger)
24. Be patient
25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you
26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out
27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil)
28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly
29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write
30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are desperate and needy
31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse
32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because he is hurting and scared
33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel
34. Do not backslide from your hard earned changes

More…

1. Agree with everything she says.

2. Act happy all the time ...no matter what and while she is around. Pretend the status quo is just fine with you

3. Stop talking about your mutual problems ...small talk happy talk ..that’s all ...women don't leave men who are happy and they don't leave men who agree with them. You wont be a wuss by agreeing. You are agreeing from a position of strength because you are secure enough in yourself to give her that agreement.

4. Your neediness is driving her away. STOP thinking of her as a need and start thinking of her as a preference ...like mustard on your hotdogs ...you prefer it ...you don't need it ...if you really need something you will never get it ...like bank loans ...like anything ..if you need it you dont get it ...if you prefer it ..you get it

5. Enjoy Friends, Hobbies, Work and Children

6. Stop needing and fake indifference

7. Stop staying “I Love You”

8. Stop asking questions such as “How are you feeling about things now,” or “How are you feeling about me,” or “Why did you do that,” or “Have you noticed I’ve improved?”

9. Stop all complaining

10. Stop showing jealousy....its not real!

11. Stop controlling

12. Stop trying to talk her into doing anything different – Into thinking different or acting different or feeling different

13. Act indifferent about the hang loose period.

14. Use a soothing voice

15. Scare her that she can lose me

16. Show sympathy

17. Keep on doing what is working

18. Do not defend yourself. When you think you’re defending yourself by telling her that she’s wrong and you are right, you are not defending yourself. You are giving her a stick to hit you with, and she always hits me with it. Therefore, giving her a stick is not defending yourself.

19. Stop trying to talk it out and reason with her. Why stop trying to talk it out or reason with her? Because you’ve tried that. That’s why you revert to arguing, that’s why you stop talking. It doesn’t work. Not only does it not work, it makes things worse. Avoid serious talk. The facts show that the more serious talking you do, the worse the situation becomes, because you attack each other’s pride, you become more defensive, and so forth. Do small talk and happy talk.

20 Once again ....Stop all arguing Why doesn’t it work? Because it attacks the pride, the source of romantic love. Certainly the source of happy, romantic love is building each other’s pride. Happy people who are in love are a mutual admiration society. They don’t spend time arguing. But it’s so natural to argue. So keep reminding yourself that arguing is masochistic. It’s worse than shooting yourself in the foot. It’s shooting yourself in the groin. Remind yourself that arguing is stupid!!

MORE…

1. Don't panic, no one ever made a great decision when in panic. You WILL panic, it's natural, but take NO ACTION when you are in that state. You have to do whatever it takes to calm down before you can tackle ANYTHING.

2. Don't depair. No-one ever got divorced in a week. Divorce, although too easy these days still take time. you DO have time to turn things about.

3. You first step is not to rebuild your R. Of course it's your ultimate aim but it's not going to happen first. Your very first step is to put the seed of doubt in WAS's mind. They have been unhappy and they consider D to be the answer. It's your job to show them that maybe there is an alternative. And I stress show. There is little you can do to talk them out of this beyond sympathising with their unhappiness and saying that IF D will make them happy then you won't stand in their way. If they are receptive to that, you could go further and say something like "we have had many good times together. Please think about this and make sure it really will make you happy. It's a lot to throw away".

4. Once you have said this back off and let them consider it. They need time. Your next step is GAL - no begging, crying or anger AT ALL. Your task is now part 2 of sowing the seeds of doubt about D – showing WAS that things can be different. Now is the time to step back, put aside your ego and all thoughts of how unfair it all is (that just leads to bitterness, which is poison to a M) and REALLY look at yourself and decide if you are worthy of being WAS's spouse. I agree a M breakdown is rarely one sided but at this juncture it's more useful to look at your contribution. Look at yourself. Under a microscope. Decide if you've changed - are you happy with yourself, for you? Make changes. Now is the time for 180's. This stage also takes a long time too.

5. Time, time, time - it really IS on your side. The situation will not resolve as quickly as you hope. Don't compare your situation in terms of time with others'. It's very tempting to say "well, their situation is similar to mine and it took them 6 months so it will take me 6 months". Each situation is unique and needs its own timeframe.

6. Set your goals and decide on your first signs. This part took me a couple of months to really "get". I had to REALLY read chapter 6 of DR from "I'm discouraged" then go and review my goals before I saw any results.

7. Develop a duck's back - water slides off it. Patience + lack of panic = success.

8. Set goals for yourself as well as the R. Decide on what you want to achieve for you alone and reward your success. I know this sounds like step 4 again but it's more a case of making the changes rather than lamenting how awful you are. I felt awful about myself for some time - bad and guilty. It did me no favours whatsoever, ended up with me feeling resentment. Much better to look forward than back - as Michelle says, look for solutions and take action.

9. Keep in mind that your actions could be frightening to WAS - you are not reacting in the way they wanted. They had this D all mapped out in their head and it's not panning out the way they thought. This has the added benefit that it leads them to think "if this isn't going the way I planned then maybe it isn't right", but it will take them a LONG TIME to come to this conclusion, to let go of their D comfort blanket. You can help them by being consistent with the positive changes. If you revert back to the you they find unacceptable then they feel perfectly justified in continuing with the D.

10. This is going to be tough on you. In the ideal world, couples in crisis would sit down together and negotiate together and accept that change was possible. In reality, you are very unlikely to resolve your problem in this way, almost certianly not in the early stages. You are not giong to have the luxury of a spouse who will listen to you and accept what you say.
You are going to be in extreme pain. You have to find something to soothe this. To have your WAS would work like a shot, but you ain't going to get this in a hurry. Do whatever it takes to comfort yourself - write a diary, see friends, go places, take the kids out if you have them, take exercise - anything. Your aim is to find something which makes you say "well, the rest of my life may be turning to sh*t but at least this part of it's OK". It acts as a time out for you and relieves the stress.

[Lostforwords]

Eric,

You son's behavior is to be expected. Try on his shoes for a moment...You were distant while mom was always there...for 16 years....so you have changed...that has also changed the dichotomy of the household. Your son has been with you the longest...so he will be most affected by those changes. In 6 months or a year he will come to appreciate the change...but right now it is a big change for him to grasp. Did you ask him why he doesn't like the changes? Don't defend them...just hear his point of view.

Conversation with your wife-Started with good intentions and went downhill. I highly recommend that you never mention anything about the journey your wife is on...that is for here. You used the word "understand"....which to be honest...you don't...I don't...we aren't in their shoes. We can fill in the gaps so that we have knowledge of what is happening...but we can never understand what is in their head. By discussing her "journey"...you are implying something is wrong with her. Until she accepts that something might be wrong...there is nothing wrong. Think about it this way.....you admit to being distant.....but if I told you that you were distant a year ago how would you respond?

Overall I wouldn't give you a failing grade...LOL. It doesn't appear that the conversation turned into a full blown fight....You just need to remember what you can discuss without implying anything about your relationship or her journey.

1) Can we agree to sit every Wednesday and discuss the upcoming schedule re: the kids. I will reaffirm that our discussion should be centered around the kids and not us.

Treading on dangerous water...can be done, but you have to keep it based on the kids. I would almost have a written note with all the kids activities for the week.

2) Can we agree that if any of the kids mention something to us about one of us that we will share the information with each other.

I would pass on this one...you ask why? If you behave in a way that gives your children nothing to report to mom...then you are doing good. So behave in a positive manner and don't involve the kids in your problems. That way they have nothing to discuss

3) Can we agree not to suggest that either of us are going thru our own "issues".

Dang...I think Eric just got tossed under a bus. I can see you wife's response "Our issues...You are the one with issues {door slam}{splat sound as eric hits pavement}". Your issues are your issues Eric. No need to share them with her or the children. Work on yourself...for yourself.

4) Can we agree to keep things as normal as possible for the kids. For example do not bring up D?

Can be seen as controlling...You can work hard to make sure situations don't arise that will bring up the topic of divorce. The second truth...is if either of you get ticked off enough...the topic will come up. No matter if their was an agreement or not.

5) Can we agree that before we start telling the kids to do thing i.e. you guys now have to do your laundry, etc. that we should discuss it first so that we are both on the same page.

This one is pretty good.....you should work towards working as partners with the kids and not individuals.

Not bad Eric...toss questions 2,3,& 4 and you are doing pretty good.

She will take the space she needs...you just need to respect that and not pursue/chase. It is possible to live in the same house and give her the space she will take. Otherwise, don't move out! Read that again...Don't move out. If she wants to move out...than let her. Otherwise...don't move out.

Trust me...be happy that things are slow...when things are going fast you need to be worried.