Yes he is, in that replay comes post bomb. A few things too remember about the stages are that they don't go 2,3,4,5 they can repeat themselves or happen two or three at a time. Also the timeline in HB's posting have nothing to do with reality. She was totally guessing when she wrote down each time.
My point is that the can move past replay and then go back into it, which is the "scary part"
Replay is usually 2-3 years of trying out new things as though they were teenagers trying to figure out who they are or what their image should be: new music, new clothes, new friends (much younger), a new lifestyle (it might involve lots of alcohol or a new sport). They generally spend money recklessly, and develop need-to-have obsessions. My H suddenly became obsessed with sportscars and motorcycles and was test-driving at dealerships and going to car expos, insisting (out of the blue) that this was something he'd always been interested in. He talked about the kids as though they were a life sentence ("We'll be too old to do anything by the time they leave home" whereas now he says, "I'll really miss them when they move out").
Did something traumatic kick-start your H's depression? HB is right, though, there are several years of growing dissatisfaction with their lives which preceed this event.
OP, yes I understand that the MLC stages aren't useful for predicting...just for interpreting the current stage.
Originally Posted By: Cyrena
Did something traumatic kick-start your H's depression?
Yes. The depression started 5 years ago, a year after he became a father of a special needs child. Our S6 has a lot of issues that we're only now getting diagnoses for (high functioning autism, etc). At that time, my income also dwindled and became less reliable (I've been basically a SAHM during that time) increasing H's provider stress. H is a shift worker with sleep issues and we live in an apartment, so our children's sleep issues (which have now been documented) have been a huge problem for H. I can predict when H is going to go into "attack mode" based on his shiftwork schedule, but while recognizing that he has sleep issues H refuses to do anything about it (other than moving out!!). I've also dealt with a lot of sleep deprivation (and I've done ALL all of the nighttime parenting for six years) and that hasn't made me fun to live with either at times.
me: 42 | STBXH: 41 | T: 18 | M: 10 | separation: Jan 3, 2010 | they deserve better: S7 & D4 current thread: http://tinyurl.com/3y8sxcp .: first breathe, then heal, then start LIVING :.
My H was also one of those who never left home. However, in some ways I think it's a really good thing that they leave. While they're "at home," they're completely mentally gone, and are constantly putting up defenses against you, from angry outbursts, to going out of their way not to touch you, to making sure they're away "for work" all week, or out all evening with things, to sleeping all day on the weekend to avoid contact--everything screams "we have nothing to do with each other." Because they're too depressed to have a healthy relationship with the children, the children suffer a lot while they're home from being ignored, criticized or being drenched in anger.
It seems worse that they've left, but it actually gives the LBS a break from all that negativity, allowing them to develop their equilibrium. It also gives them the opportunity to show their "new, improved" selves to the WAS for the short periods of time they have contact. Even if it doesn't show, the WAS will take notice of all changes. Plus, the WAS learns more quickly that being alone is NOT bringing happiness. Leaving home seems like a definitive step away, but their overwhelming desire to run is not at all different from that of the stay-at-home MLCer. Either kind are like birds receiving the autumn call to migrate in every fibre of their being; my H said it was closely tied to a call to wrap himself around a tree.
I think they are more likely to leave if an OP is involved and "promises" happy times. The result is the same. My H leaving, was the best thing that could happen at that time. No eggshells walking, no fear, no feeling hostage of his moods in my home. And he had to face some consequences. Unfortunately those were the kids' emotional state. But, the OW started pushing, he had to answer to others why he left, realised -I hope- our life wasnt that bad after all. K
OP, I see people saying that the stages can be done in various orders, and I want to quibble a bit with that. I think that it's like human development: first a child is a newborn, then a baby who crawls, then a toddler, then a preschooler, etc. After the child learns to walk, she may get scared and choose to crawl again for a while, or the preschooler may suddenly display more infantile habits, like not being toilet-trained any more when a new sibling is born. The fact that they're in a particular stage doesn't mean that they can't exhibit traits from another stage in answer to various developmental challenges.
In the same way, I think that the MLCer goes through Conway's 6 stages in that order. There are often regressions to a previous stage (or even glimpses of the next one), but, looking back on my H's MLC, the first 6 or so months after his mother's death were a sort of numb denial, then he spent about 9 months being angry about EVERYTHING, then he moved to a replay of his teenaged years. Sure, he might have been both angry and in denial (and even withdrawn) while in Depression at times, but he was actually in the stage of Depression, finishing off with those other behaviours). After he reached Acceptance he still had Replay instincts in his head, but he didn't actually go through replay again.
Anyhow, that's how it appeared to me. But then, my H was that rarest-of-rare creatures, the exception who makes the rule: a man whose MLC timelines fit perfectly into HB's description!
You may have more real experience at it than me, I only can go by what I have read. I am basically just repeating that. Some pretty experienced MLC LBS'ers have told me this, so I would take it as true. J3B would be one of them. The first time I read the 6 stages and posted on my thread that my W was in depression he let me know I could be wrong. I think most people that start posting here have there spouses in replay, so thats not unusual. I guess the ones that have multiple OP's are repeating,anger,replay,depression,and withdrawl over and over.
The way I see it, a progression is made between the stages: something has been learned by or has changed in the MLCer. So, if someone seems to have been in Depression but is exhibiting Replay, I'd argue s/he was never in Depression yet--just evidencing signs of small-d depression--and hasn't yet left Replay. To me, once my H reached Depression and Withdrawal, he was behaving in ways I hadn't previously seen in his journey.
However, that's just my opinion, and I greatly respect J3B's input as well.
Honestly, Flo... it sounds to me that your H is not really cut out for parenting unless things are going well. If your son has had these issues for six years that is ample time for your H to have done something to change his feelings about it.
Millions of people all around the world do shift work and live in apartments AND deal with children and they make it through. Millions of people are the sole income provider and don't allow that to drive them to ditching their W and kids.
You being a SAHM and your H doing shift work was not a free ticket for him not to contribute more to parenting.
I know you would like to think your H is in a MLC and maybe he is. I certainly am no expert. But to me he sounds like he simply lacks the *something* to deal with things (income, sleep, special needs child) in a way many people have to.
IMO he put LOTS of stock in making a business work because he failed in other areas of his life. While I am speculating he seems like a "wing and a prayer" type guy when it comes to business and finances. It is telling that he mingled your personal and business finances. He either was being reckless or not educated on the basics of business.
Why were you expected to handle a draining and demanding night time routine w/the children just because your H was doing shift work? Can you help us understand? Each time this issue comes up in one of your posts I find myself so confused as to why you allowed this for so long? Was it really all about the money? All of your H's failures really were his own doing but it seems (IMO of course) you justify them when he has done little to make up for them and the harm they have caused you and his children.
CG, you're asking a lot of the questions that I've asked during the parenting years. H was enthusiastic about starting a family and came from a family of 5 boys. He coaxed me into starting a family (and I was happy to be coaxed).
I think there have been a few things going on:
1. He comes from a European family where the father did absolutely no parenting and the mother was an uber-mom who almost professionally raised 5 very rowdy boys completely on her own, while also doing all the little services for the father (bringing him espresso etc.). Even for the time, the role divisions in that family were really extreme. They hit a crisis after H left home and the mother took the children who were still at home to their country home while the father still lived in the city and continued his alcoholic workaholic lifestyle. Then they become really religious and he renounced his city lifestyle and joined them in the country. The way the story was told to me I thought it was a stage that lasted a couple of weeks, but I recently found out that it was a separation of closer to a year, but I doubt that H realizes. Sorry for the boring background but H may have some unrealistic expectations of roles based on his upbringing.
2. H has extremes in his temperament and has always had them. He probably was able to keep the extremes in balance by self-regulating in some ways before kids (i.e. obsessive involvement in sports), but the constraints of the parenting lifestyle have revealed his areas of vulnerability in a big way.
3. I was distressed at H's depression/withdrawal/anger problems and probably overcompensated for him in some ways in the parenting department. For example, he complained long and loud about sleep, so I always did my best to let him off the hook for the nighttime stuff. He was always an involved father (sometimes with some prodding from me) but like many mothers I've done the "heavy lifting".
4. In our case, the special needs issue has been slowly brewing. When S was younger, we'd have conversations about how hard it was and how it was affecting our M, and H would be the one reassuring me saying "he'll grow out of it, we just have to get through the next couple of years and it will get easier". But that didn't really happen. And last fall was when the realization was hitting that our S doesn't just have ADHD...he has more serious issues and ones that he is not going to grow out of.
me: 42 | STBXH: 41 | T: 18 | M: 10 | separation: Jan 3, 2010 | they deserve better: S7 & D4 current thread: http://tinyurl.com/3y8sxcp .: first breathe, then heal, then start LIVING :.
My belief that H is in MLC is based on the following:
depression has lasted 5 years (on and off)
H turned 40 last summer, refused any celebration of any kind
H has the real threat being of debilitated by kidney disease or dying in the medium term (2.5 years ago he was told he'd be on dialysis in 5 years)
2 of H's brothers died (17 and 15 years ago) and he never really seemed to have grieved their deaths
H was the eldest "golden" boy in a family where the parents had very high expectations and where the father was alcoholic (mostly social), workaholic, and physically harsh at times. In other words: unresolved childhood issues.
I can really understand how H would feel that he's "lost himself" and "is this all there is??" because I've had those feelings as well. I think I just feel less hopeless than he does and I have the EQ to not blame H for my feelings (most of the time) and I've spent my time dealing with stuff in therapy.
me: 42 | STBXH: 41 | T: 18 | M: 10 | separation: Jan 3, 2010 | they deserve better: S7 & D4 current thread: http://tinyurl.com/3y8sxcp .: first breathe, then heal, then start LIVING :.
