flowmom | shifting from devastated to rebuilding

[flowmom]

H4L and Kalni, thanks for those...I've been ploughing through the MLC stuff and already came across them. I haven't read all the HeartsBlessing stuff -- it's useful but her personal sitch was pretty different (no separation for example, which IMO is a huge step for someone to take while in depression/crisis).

H4L, as I posted above, I find organizing camping trips with other families tricky. People are busy, and often change plans at the last minute. My S has social issues, so there is only one family that realistically he'd be excited about going camping with...and they are unlikely to be available. Sometimes having other children around can be more work for me: overstimulation issues/conflict, for example.

[flowmom]

She helped me to map out a very specific strategy for dealing with H, and made some interesting connections between my son's sensory issues and H's high reactivity.

I'd be interested in hearing more about this.. (sorry, I know it isn't exactly on topic) I have a 13 year old with Autism and he has huge sensory issues as well..

Can you be more specific about what I can tell you about this? We didn't discuss it in depth, it was mostly her telling me to act as if H has sensory issues i.e. he may not process info from my voice and facial expressioin in a typical way.

[flowmom]

happy_again (a real life WAH in MLC who used to post here) wrote this after reconciling with his W:

i needed to get some thoughts off of my chest as i was thinking alot about some of the questions that keep coming my way and they are all the same just worded differently. I also wanted to say that as a former MLc person i do understand the hurt that many of you are in right now and i am sorry that people like me have hurt people like you.

the number one question is about cake eating and how to treat your spouse. let me give you my point of view and i am not an expert i can only tell you what worked for me and my wife. number one rule is to never allow anyone to abuse you emotionally or physically or verbally.you have to set personal boundaries on this and do what is best for you.nobody is allowed to treat another this way.

with this being said i also know that yelling and being angry and spewing are all a symptom of mlc. so we need to find a way to understand each other in this area. even though it may be directed at you it is not personal although it may seem like it most of the time.you are a victim of circumstance and happen to also be the closest and safest person we know.deep down we know that you love us and we also know that you probably are going to continue to love us so you are safe.

each and every time i would see my family or go to the house it would tear me up inside. i would go out of my way to find fault with soemthing, anything just to prove a point but god only knows what point i was proving because i ended up being a jackass most of the time. all of the reminders of the things i had left behind.my whole life in a house and now i had nothing.all because of the choice i made.
and for what? after a while nothing helped me and there were no words to make me feel better.maybe this was acceptance i dont know.

but back to what i was saying before i know that the things i said in anger and my madness were all lies and ways to be cruel. when Allie stopped fighting back and just listened and did not react i seemd to calm down.i began to notice that she was not fighting with me anymnore. i was a total [censored] to her and i would test her to the limit and she stood firm. this is when i began to start having even more guilt for my actions and would sometimes go days without calling her back or answering her emails.but she never asked me questions and when i did finally call she was always happy and made me feel welcome.

there were times i called in the middle of the night just to hear her voice. she never got angry with me she was a friend. but there were also times when she was tired or busy and she would be polite but tell me that it wasnt a good time to talk. i would get angry but i respected her boundaries.there were also times if i was spewing my [censored] that she would say Bob I cant talk when you act this way so why not call me when you have calmed down and she would hang up but never without an explanation. i know now that she would be furious but she learned how to be patient.

the cake eating part i think refers to some fandangled thing you lbs think we are doing each time we reach out to you. it isnt that way. sometimes after talking to my friend i would call Allie because i felt guilty or i would come over to t he house and repair something.yes i know it was wrong but do you also understand that my heart was still at home but my head was elsewhere. i know that it may seem very wrong but many times i wanted to be home and have the comforts of home and be with my family but i wanted things to change and i needed my space i didnt want to return to the nagging and the feeling of being just a freaking paycheck and the fix it guy.i wanted a wife not a mother. i guess i had the best of both worlds but i was made to feel welcome in my house and that is what made me come home.

i hope that this might help someone understand that i really dont believe that their spouse is out to get them i think that their spouse is crying out for help and doing really irrational things because they can not find the words to express themselves.it is almost like being a caged animal and the walls are coming in all around you and you have to get away but you also know that you feel safe in the cage and once you escape you dont know what to do with yourself. you find different ways of making the pain go away and it dies for a little while and then it comes back but only worse.

by the way Allie helped me write this.

[DiamondGirl]

That's exactly what I'd like to find out about.. H has said that I look angry, etc when I'm not and sound other than how I feel. How did she recommend handling it with him?

[rr22]

I read a lot of the MLC thread guy link that FM posted. Very harsh and very eye-opening about blame and responsibility and other things. Some of that probably resonates for people in MLC or depression or nervous breakdown or whatever. In many types of situations where emotions and resentments and floundering decisions and feeling lost go on. Thanks for reposting.

[flowmom]

That's exactly what I'd like to find out about.. H has said that I look angry, etc when I'm not and sound other than how I feel.

I have the same problem and it's done a lot of damage in my M. I think it's because H needs me to set boundaries, but I don't know how to do that in a connected/loving way. I also got very poor role modeling in that area.

How did she recommend handling it with him?

Super gentle, super soft, avoid "harsh startup" - that is huge (from Gottman's work, google it for more info), ask for permission before talking, give H more control over how the communication takes place (ask him if he prefers phone/email/in person), bring up difficult topics in a round-a-bout way preceded by lots of affirmation of his efforts, etc.

Bottom line is that you're not going to be able to hide your feelings from your H. I spent a lot of time feeling bitter, frustrated, overwhelmed, hurt, angry, confused, dismayed, etc. in the last few years, and it came across loud and clear no matter how carefully I chose my words. There are a lot of reasons I had those feelings so I'm not going to beat myself up for having them, but I wish that I had worked on that more because the inside does have to match the outside. Now that I see that I will likely lose my H, I can find those soft, loving feelings and I can let go of all that. So I guess I could have before, I just didn't challenge myself enough.

I've also concluded that I need to work on gentle boundaries. When happy_again posted about his W, she managed to be very loving, calm, and set boundaries in very soft, non-triggering ways and he gives her a lot of credit for standing her ground while still treating him in a very accepting and loving way. She sounds like a saint, frankly! He was really harsh when he posted on the forum and I assume IRL, so I don't imagine it was easy for her to DB (she had the book).

I'm looking into taking an assertiveness training course for women, or something along those lines. I also really appreciate Byron Katie's take on boundaries. She is all about being loving, but she challenges us to say no. Byron Katie-isms would be:

"I love you and no".
"I can see how you'd want that and no".

It's all about AND rather than BUT (on an emotional level):

I love you AND no
vs
I love you BUT no

I think that's the crux of developing good boundary-setting stills in a M - not the AND/BUT words, but the vibe.

[DiamondGirl]

I have the same problem and it's done a lot of damage in my M. I think it's because H needs me to set boundaries, but I don't know how to do that in a connected/loving way. I also got very poor role modeling in that area.

I think I'm in the same boat with this... Early on, before H started to constantly spew and I saw a glimpse of him, he said he didn't know where his boundaries were...And I was raised by a mother who does not recognize/know about boundaries... I'm really now just learning about them myself..

I've also concluded that I need to work on gentle boundaries. When happy_again posted about his W, she managed to be very loving, calm, and set boundaries in very soft, non-triggering ways and he gives her a lot of credit for standing her ground while still treating him in a very accepting and loving way. She sounds like a saint, frankly! He was really harsh when he posted on the forum and I assume IRL, so I don't imagine it was easy for her to DB (she had the book).

This is an area where I need to work on too.. I was raised in a household where yelling was the norm and criticism passed as jokes.. The world doesn't work the way I grew up and it's really hard to figure out when I'm being dysfunctional..

Thanks for your insights.. It has helped me a great deal..

I know that the MLC blames the spouse, but it would be good if I could not bring it on should we see each other/face each other again soon.. Maybe also de-escalate it when he does...

[Cyrena]

I've been ploughing through the MLC stuff and already came across them. I haven't read all the HeartsBlessing stuff -- it's useful but her personal sitch was pretty different (no separation for example, which IMO is a huge step for someone to take while in depression/crisis).

My H was also one of those who never left home. However, in some ways I think it's a really good thing that they leave. While they're "at home," they're completely mentally gone, and are constantly putting up defenses against you, from angry outbursts, to going out of their way not to touch you, to making sure they're away "for work" all week, or out all evening with things, to sleeping all day on the weekend to avoid contact--everything screams "we have nothing to do with each other." Because they're too depressed to have a healthy relationship with the children, the children suffer a lot while they're home from being ignored, criticized or being drenched in anger.

It seems worse that they've left, but it actually gives the LBS a break from all that negativity, allowing them to develop their equilibrium. It also gives them the opportunity to show their "new, improved" selves to the WAS for the short periods of time they have contact. Even if it doesn't show, the WAS will take notice of all changes. Plus, the WAS learns more quickly that being alone is NOT bringing happiness. Leaving home seems like a definitive step away, but their overwhelming desire to run is not at all different from that of the stay-at-home MLCer. Either kind are like birds receiving the autumn call to migrate in every fibre of their being; my H said it was closely tied to a call to wrap himself around a tree.

HeartsBlessing really has the stages of MLC down perfectly--don't let the differences in situation make you discount what most people have found to be the most useful and detailed resource about MLC here.

I've been impressed by the personal discoveries you've been making lately--congratulations for being open to doing the hard work.

[flowmom]

email response from me to H:

Hi flowdad

I've just paid off the line of credit.

Thank you so much! I know you have been working really hard at dealing with our financial situation.

My suggestion would be that we shut the thing down. We would still have our credit cards and overdraft protection to act as buffers

Do you agree?

I like the idea of reducing our access to credit, but I must admit that I feel unsure about that idea.

I am definitely willing to stop any new borrowing from the LOC. On the other hand, my credit card is at $XXXXX at an interest rate of 11.9%. The LOC interest rate is at 5.5%. It would be advantageous to use the LOC to pay off $XXXXX of my credit card. That alone would save quite a bit of money in monthly interest payments. Then it would make sense to continue paying off the credit card then the LOC.

What do you think?

F

Any feedback on my response? I feel like it really matters how I deal with situations like this.

I ramped up my credit card when H wasn't giving me much money because he was putting it all into his business. My spending was high too, but he was blocking me on working out a budget etc so I had no idea where our finances were/are (and neither did he because his business finances were hopelessly mixed up in our personal finances).

Ugh. I feel yukky D/financial talks coming on...Wish me strength. This is a huge trigger area for both of us, with lots of layers.

[flowmom]

Thanks for the encouragement Cyrena .

I agree with you that there are advantages to separation. I am definitely experiencing them myself. I feel like a fragile seedling that is getting a chance to grow without being stomped on. And although my children are definitely stressed at the S, and I'm not convinced it's better for them, at least they are not dealing with H's anger these days.

But I also take to heart what I read in Depression Fallout: when a spouse separates while in a depression then they are very serious about leaving and chances of reconciliation are very low . I guess I want our M to be one of the exceptions like the success stories that I've read here on this forum.

I didn't mean to discount HB's writings...I do find them useful and I will continue to plough through them. I think I decided that H is in Replay. But that doesn't tell much about what the next year will look like