Is this piecing?

[flowmom]

H4L, it sounds like how you set the boundary worked really well! I'm really glad you left the room. I wish I had done that more in the past...it allows them to cool down rather than continue to target their anger at us.

It's draining though, and I'm sure that's part of how you're feeling now. I think that the more you practice, the better it will get, and I hope that you continue to get the immediate positive feedback of him changing his tack right away.

About reliability. That was an issue in our M. Even though H was unreliable in many ways that Ws would expect from their Hs, I know that some times when I let H down (regarding financial/paperwork stuff) was a real issue for him. I feel that it's something that I need to address and work on a 180 for. I am going to try to surprise him by having my tax stuff ready for him BEFORE he asks for it, and I'll be thinking of other things to do as well.

We can't expect ourselves to be perfect and neither can our Hs. And your oversight is no excuse for him wigging out. But I just wanted to share my own insights into an area that needs a 180 in my sitch.

[Butterfly1]

Thanks for the support everyone.

I have to say we had a "talk" tonight. It was calm and cool and then after I went to my neighbor's to vent and came back calm and cool.

Glad to be hearing what H really thinks and to hear it calmly. But frankly his tune hasn't changed for eight months and I'm fed up.

He says he "doesn't think we can be together because what's done is done and you can't change the past." I still don't get it. It's like somehow we could have never made it because we had these horrible issues from the start, so nothing will ever be ok. He feels he should have been less confused and confronted me about splitting up long before because of THINGS I DID.

I'm sorry. I've owned my crap. I've made changes. I'm on these damn boards hours a day. And in his mind he's still the victim of a person whom he will always fear will "cross the line". Somehow because of my banshee attitude in the past nothing will ever change. You know what? Tonight I'm at FINE. If we can't move on together, if we can't forgive, change and grow, then forget it I can't do any more. If he can't feel one drop of remorse over the injustices he has acted out over me, then f it. I cannot do this alone any more.

Here's the biggie - when S was three or four months old, I was completely sleep deprived and struggling with a baby who wouldn't eat. It was terrifying. They had told me when he was five days old that he might have menengitis and might die in 72 hours. Any mom on these boards knows how stressful the early months are.

H and I got into a fight one night. He gets nasty and refuses to bring in a rocking chair I had bought which was sitting outside in the rain. I lose my temper, he loses his temper, we have a blow out. I'm out of my mind exhausted and I hit his arm - granted NO EXCUSE. This guy lifts 250 lbs at the gymn weekly. I was a new mom, hadn't exercised in over a year. HE CALLS THE COPS ON ME. I take the baby and hide in the car for an hour. They hunt me down and drag me to jail, taking my new baby back home.

What kind of man does this to his wife?

Yes, I was at fault too. I wasn't just sitting there like mother Theresa. But he's scared of me? How cruel was that?

I am furious at this thing of he has to D me because I freak out. H tells me tonight that all the stuff we talk about in MC just isn't that big of a deal to him. The "real issues" are underneath, and that he never talked about them because "I" never wanted to hear them. I'm sick of the blame. His anger, coldness, meanness is the issue to me. I know I shouldn't freak out. But it's hell living with someone like this and I'm done.

He says they "don't matter" because we were working on them in therapy before the bomb and we still had giant issues - I still freaked out on him. My stance is - and he refuses to hear this - is that it hasn't worked because he continues to blame me! He hasn't treated me with enough respect, love, and kindness!

ANd guess what, he admits I haven't "freaked out" since last JUNE! But he still lives in fear? I told him (jokingly) that he hasn't freaked out since yesterday. He doesn't hear.

Advice on therapy tomorrow?

I'm going to listen and validate. He says I haven't heard him? I will. He will not be able to use that excuse. Maybe I will learn something. And if he dumps me - that's the ultimate test. Can I be this cool and calm when there's nothing to gain?

Then I'm going to stand up for myself. There were two in those rooms. The cruelty went both ways. I'm willing to forgive and forget if we can work on new ways of relating. If he's going to hold a grudge forever, and if he's going to stab me with a hot poker and then divorce me if I cry, so be it.

It's weird. I'm so confused. One day I think we're getting somewhere and that in my heart I know he'll come back.
Other days like today I think he hasn't moved a centimeter and therefor there is no hope. I think I need to give up hope. Face the sad terrifying truth of being alone from the person who vowed to love and care for me

The other thing is that he is wearing his wedding ring less and less. We had a big talk - he said he's not out to pick up chicks or make a statement to me or the world, but if we're not together it feels inauthentic to wear it.

BASTARD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[flowmom]

Oh, H4L, the calling the cops incident is really low. You sound so discouraged, understandably.

I'm wondering if your H is somewhat similar to mine. The cops incident is a huge overreaction and I've noticed that my H really overreacts when I am being harsh (often for good reason...being a sleep-deprived mama is no joke). A lot of my H's anger and rage is a way of "defending" himself against me, for "crimes" that I consider pretty minor (usually a negative comment or tone of voice when my irritation or frustration gets the better of me).

Anyway my DB coach had an insight for me that, given that my S has "sensory" issues, it might help me to look at my H as having sensory issues as well. That he might hear an angry word or harsh tone of voice from me as being much worse that it is in actuality.

My H is a big, macho guy who is very forceful, but in some ways I think he has "lived in fear" of me as well. I think that feeling criticized by me has cut him to his core, and I did not understand how deep this could run until I read How To Improve Your Marriage Without Talking About It.

Although you have not freaked out since last June, honestly our guys might feel like abused spouses do -- that it might happen at any moment regardless of how long it's been. Your H is stuck in defense/attack mode and I've dealt with that a lot.

I think that really listening to your H in C tomorrow is a good idea. It may be that he just can't change. Or it may be that the see-sawing is part of the reconciliation process. I think it would be really positive if your H could show some vulnerability around the pain that he feels when you have "mistreated" him in the past.

Byron Katie says that there's my business, there's your business and there's God's business. All we can do is get back to what's "my business".

I hope you have a peaceful night.

[Butterfly1]

You are right FM!! It might happen any moment regardless of how long its been! THank you. I have no idea how or if we can ever get past it. Well if he can get past it.

ok, we just had another "talk". H basically feels like our history is just too fraught with baggage for it ever to feel safe. There will always be the fear and uncertainty of things going sour and frankly he always felt that way, so if he never really felt safe, how could he see it feeling safe now that there's more pain on top of it?

I listened, I talked, he listened, he talked. We stayed calm. I have no perspective anymore. Help with perspective welcome.

[Butterfly1]

THinking about what he was saying - H says he doesn't know if he can trust his feelings, not sure what the answer is. I guess this is better than nothing. He says he's "leaning" toward one direction - (we're getting legally separated, this week!), but that he just doesn't know what to do or if his feelings will change in the future. I should also be grateful for that. Now I'm back to the question - are we even piecing?

It is discouraging that even though I have eight months of 180s under my belt, that H acknowledges, he still can't feel safe enough to be with me. Says he's always afraid things will change on a dime. I keep saying that we have free will and that we can own the mistakes we made and still make the changes. H is struggling with thinking that the problems are better confronted early on so they don't escalate into many years of baggage like we have now. He keeps saying he wonders if it would be best to start with a new "tabala rasa" with which to work. I said that may be - and it also may be that the fantasy involved in a new R makes it harder to confront issues. At least now we are in reality as to what needs work. H blames it on "bad chemistry from the start" which I think is total BS> when he said the R wasn't even "adequate" when we married I think that's BS too. He did marry me after all.

Basically he admits he is risk averse in all areas of life. he took risks with me in our R, often going against his gut that he should have been dealing better with our problems and he feels that got him screwed and the R got worse. H sees D as the safe option. Safety appeals to his personality, but especially now when "taking risks" with me failed in his eyes.

I mentioned building trust little by little, like stepping into a cold lake inch by inch until you are comfortable in the water. He says no, eventually you have to jump in and he can't forsee doing that right now.

Gosh, is this more WAS blather and I should count my babysteps and hang in there? Or should I face the music and get out with what little self respect I have left?

Thank you all for getting me through the boundary thing the past couple of days. I don't believe H and I would be communicating if we hadn't gotten through that hump.

[Cadet]

H4l

I haven't really been following you sich but It sounds like from the surface your H is depressed? Did he have any childhood issues? Could he be in the middle of a MLC? You don't have to have wild behavior for this. Just the 2 things from above.

[flowmom]

H4L, OP makes a good point about MLC.

I'm pretty sure my H is in one. When we went to MC (dec08-may09), where we reached an impasse was the safety issue -- H not feeling safe enough to make himself vulnerable in the M, me feeling like I had really worked at and improved in my behaviours. Unfortunately the MC really wasn't effective -- we opened up the Pandora's box and then were left swatting flies with no solutions or strategies. Anyway, it became clear that a lot of H's feeling unsafe was baggage from the past...things that happened a decade ago, etc. with me but I assume some other things (unresolved grief from his brothers' deaths, etc). That's when I sort of gave up and told my H "I can't make this M safe for you. You will have to deal with some of this stuff.").

My solution was years of therapy to deal with my childhood baggage, but H would not and probably will not do that. Hence the MLC --> waking up feeling trapped in a life that he feels he didn't choose, surrounded by big piles of baggage. H is desperately trying to jettison the baggage, and is throwing out the baby with the bathwater at the same time (M and an intact family).

In retrospect, what we needed help with was bringing things back to the present. Maybe the MC giving H the tools to express vulnerability to me (in a safe way) so that he triggers my soft, caring side rather than my self-protective side. And I needed the tools to set boundaries in a soft, gentle way...because H is not the easiest person to live with and we have a lot of challenges in our life.

I can't remember if you've done DB phone coaching, but I think they would be able to help with some of the daily intereactions. But the MLC thing is a big can of worms and it's discouraging to read what time frames are involved. I think that H started 5 years ago.

Anyway back to your session today: if all three of you could hold the space for your H to be in his pain in a safe way...I wonder if that could help him. And for you: I guess you need to get across that your needs (esp for feeling safe, kindness, peacefulness) don't go away just because he's having a rough time.

I really admire that you're able to look deeply into your M and yourself. I worry that the way that I support you could come off as encouraging doormat behaviour in you. I don't want to do that...but I think that I'm projecting from my own sitch where being "strong" and "standing up for myself" without good assertiveness skills (doing it in a way that my H can hear without defensiveness) has been a big part of our M problems.

Remember that self love will be the best guide for you on this journey. If you operate from that place, you won't make any wrong decisions.

[rr22]

I do not know what to say. It's hard to predict what will come of this. I've thought about this often and my IC has brought it up often that the separation might start me on a self growth and self improvement path that, because of the effort I put in, moves me not only beyond where I was but beyond where H is able or willing to go, be it ever or at this time.

That seems to be where you might be. Some of the emotional abuse chapters and infidelity recovery chapters in R books sometimes talk about spouses who can't or won't forgive or grow. I would empathize, but I would also not take more than my fair share of responsibility. The safety thing could still be true for him over time or it could turn into a convenient blame excuse after awhile not to do hard work on yourself to move beyond the past. Or he might literally never be the guy who can or will be willing to work on himself like that. Or he might be stuck on his way there and reacting to the separation.

Detach and keep working at it, I guess. I know how you feel. I'm all over the place lately and very close to throwing in the towel. The more you work, the more I expect effort and growth on his part. It's very frustrating. It's almost like my expectations for him and his behavior have gone way beyond what they ever were prior. And he may not be able to live up to that. And it may not be reasonable.

I don't think you're a bad guy. Sleep deprivation does crazy things to people. And we fix it and move on and become people we admire again. You don't have to beg him to admire you the rest of your life. You don't want to be with a guy who ultimately wants to hold something over you or is too scared not to. You know?

I guess time will tell.

Also, I strongly agree with everything Flowmom said about trying to be superhuman and validating in MC at this juncture if there's a hope to get past the hump. It might be a WAS. It might not. Maybe vent here instead this week or at your IC.

If he's mounting his justification for why he can walk away from his commitment and not feel guilty, there's nothing you can do. And there's no way to know whether he's doing that or not or afraid.

[Cadet]

MC for someone in MLC is difficult and can be like chasing your tail. In my case we went to MC but MY W was unwilling to commit to M. MC eventually turned into a way to validate that she wanted a D. Once we stopped the C and I validated that she should get D my sich started getting a little better.

[Butterfly1]

thanks folks.
It's going dwonhill again. I'm going to accept this is over.

H gets up this morning, all is going well, he takes one look at my legal documents and starts yelling at me why can't I do it right and why did I take so long and if I can't do things right, I'm paying his attourney fee to fix it. All rational arguments, but he was yelling in a totally condescending way. I was sleep deprived again. COuldn't sleep last night due to these talks last night where I feel blamed. I made the mistake of defending myself. I said I did it exactly how he told me to and he screams this is not his responsibility. I throw the pen down on the table and walk off.

Now this is justifed as I'm losing it (the pen). I got so tired of working so hard to be healthy, calm, etc, and he continues to yell and put me down in front of S. He refuses to hear it. I'm not going to be blamed anymore for not being perfect enough to be safe when he is acting so hurtful and I can't feel safe.

I'm going dark and moving on.