Well, Lotus, this has certainly opened my eyes. No wonder you slapped me around a bit when you first started visiting my thread. Though I am younger our situations obviously had some parallels. I guess that's why I'm supposed to keep my words soft - I eventually may get to eat them. Thank you for sticking with me!
Could my H and I go to Retro if he hasn't ended the A yet? And how religious do you have to be?
I've written the letter for him to read while I'm gone on my four day trip. I will type it all up tomorrow morning. Would you please stop by my thread tomorrow and read it? I do value your input, and that goes for all of you here. I know it will need some tweaking, but at least I got my thoughts on paper. He comes home from his school on Monday afternoon, so I sort of want it sealed in an envelope by then to leave for him next Saturday when I leave.
Again, Lotus, I am humbled by your experience and my previous ignorance/lack of receptiveness.
undefeated 24 H 24 S's 4, 2, 1 M 5 yrs
"Most of the important things in the world have been accomplished by people who have kept on trying when there seemed to be no hope at all." ~Dale Carnegie
In response to what Coach said.....would you feel the same way if you found out today that your W had been in an A when she was S from you (or maybe even before she left you) and didn't tell you that when the two of you reconcilled?
I have withheld things that I thought different ones in my family were not strong enough to handle. Maybe they were very old & fragile. Maybe they were very ill at the time, etc. I understand how you are relating that with a MR that is in ICU. But that is how I was seeing the other thread that I referred to when the OM from the past called the WAW when she & her H was recovering her A and doing fairly well. She was afraid to tell her H and wanted to protect him from any pain it would inflict. Since I have a H with a health condition....I immediately thought about it in that light, but I was shot down for it b/c it was not being transparent.
In response to what Lotus said.....
Being in dreamland and having a PA is different. Your H never knew of your PA, right? To me, that is serious stuff. Did you contact the OM before or after the retreat or just stopped contacting him? Did you go through withdrawal?
Do you wonder how your H would react if the OM (or somebody else) contacted him and said something about the PA--and he doesn't even know that information? Would it cause a problem now? The new information might cause him to think he looks like a fool (you know how some men are about that)b/c he was in the dark about it.
I think it is very rare that two people can go the rest of their lives without telling their S about an A without it coming back to bite them. It concerns me that a newcomer would think they don't have to have transparency in the M b/c often times.....even if they think they have forgiven "complaints" they don't realize it includes an A they didn't know about.
I understand what forgiveness is, but I also think the person doing the forgiving should know what they are forgiving. At the time of forgiving, the emotional state is usually one that you think, "It doesn't matter what has happen, I forgive", and if one can truly do that then that's wonderful and it wipes the slate clean and you're off to a fresh start. However, even if it is suppose to include "everything" they ever did, I think I know how most people would respond to certain situations. If I told my H that I forgave him of the things in the past....and then some woman contacts us that she has a child that was born out of an A with him.....I think I would be dazed to say the least.....and my first reaction would probably be, "I didn't know I was forgiving you of a PA when I thought I was forgiving you for spending too much time away from me & the kids". It's kind of like wrapping up a package and having a lot of odds & ends with this one really ugly item you are hoping gets lost in the shuffle with the other stuff and he won't notice it.
Anyway, I won't continue to harp on the subject.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Looks to me like the husbands affair saved the marriage. As so often happens the original WS wakes up quite fast when the BS lets go and starts seeing someone new. It took 24 years for this man to find out how to get her turned around.
Yes, Gucci, the H's affair created the crisis that forced us to decide yea or nay on the marriage. That doesn't make me thank him for the affair, but I am aware that as a result of the work we did after his affair, our marriage is much better than it was before.
Sandi, I don't know how to answer all of your concerns. We did what worked. We followed the road that was laid out in front of us. Maybe it wouldn't work for everyone. It worked for us. That is why when I am asked for advice, I do not give specific instructions, I say go to a Retrouvaille weekend. They spend 2 full days teaching you how to heal your marriage (that's heal, not go back through all past problems and correct all past mistakes), and it is more than I can put into directions on a website.
My IC said that W and I need to deal with the big items of the past, when the R can support that, one issue at a time, in order to truely forget and move on.
Well, I don't buy it. You will see, starting in about 20 hours. You will discuss the past, and then you will move beyond the past. I suggest that if the weekend does help you, you look for a new IC, someone who doesn't do all that Freudian digging into the past. Perhaps a cognitive behavior therapist who focuses on changing your dynamic to a new healthier one. All I can say is, I am so relieved that my H and I no longer have those same circular arguments that neither of us can win, because when they come up we say, "No bringing up the past!" And we walk away from it.
I don't think I ever heard anything about withholding/not confessing an affair. Forgiveness was a big part of the weekend. There wasn't an A on either side of my marriage, so I might not have the best perspective on that. I do know that the presenters spoke very openly about their A's.
It didn't work in my case, I don't think XW was really committed. Actually, I know she wasn't. She knew that she was right and justified in everything that she was feeling. She wasn't interested in taking the time to follow up, and that's where the real success comes from. And it is a lot of work.
On the religious question, it's Catholic, no question about it. But there was no one telling you to be Catholic, no fire and brimstone (ok, that's not so Catholic), no real "preaching". There was a service Sunday morning, but you didn't have to participate, though I think everyone did. And there was a clear understanding that everyone there was not Catholic.
I think there is room to discuss the past, in the controlled environment that you learn. I think that if it is a stumbling block, then it needs to be cleared, and you learn the tools to do that. On the other hand, in Lotus' case, it seems that both she and her H have acknowledged that there was inappropriate behavior, and feelings, and they have agreed to forgive, and put it behind them without worrying about the gory details. For them, that may well be the right answer, for someone else, maybe not. Not having been in those shoes, I can't say.
Killing time here reading threads before I head out to Retrouvaille. Your initial story would make a nice sitcom episode. It was beautiful, thanks for sharing that.
I am hopeful for my weekend and need to really come in with an open mind and heart.
TBL now equals "Toward Better Love" M-44 W-42; 2 kids; married 11 years 1st bomb 10-08, reconcile 12-08 2nd bomb 8-09, moving toward reconcile 3-7-10
Thanks, TBL. Yes, my family is quite the sit-com sometimes! I hope that you and your wife will open up to each other this weekend and find a reason to stay together. Jeff makes a good point above, it's not just the weekend, it's doing the work afterwards -- sticking with the Post sessions, doing the homework, asking for help when you need it. We all seem to let out our marriages fly on auto-pilot for so long, that I don't think 6 weeks of actually working on the marriage is asking too much!
