flowmom | shifting from devastated to rebuilding

[flowmom]

Thanks for chiming in Cyrena

The spark is gone because he's depressed, and it can't return until he comes out of the depression--so, no, there's nothing YOU can do to change him and bring it back.

Good point Cyrena.

So, what can you do to become the confident girl you used to be, the one that attracted H in the first place? At the same time (I believe you read Love & Stosny's book), how can you avoid triggering any feelings of shame in him, so that any negative spark-killing emotions are gone?

Yep, working on all of the above. IC and I talked about why H fell in love with me. He asked me how I could get back to the person that I was when H and I were happy together. I said that I didn't think I could go backward, only forward, but that I could pick up some threads from the past, like 1. my love of outdoor adventure 2. an expanded social network 3. my career and 4. a connection with men as friends and allies. I'm making babysteps on 1, 2, and 4. 3 is hard because I'm having brutal struggles with procrastination.

FWIW, I agree with CityGirl that your C needs to be for you alone at this point.

I think I'm going to stick with that unless the IC can convince me otherwise.

[CityGirl]

The one thing I would suggest for YOU is to try and take a step back and refrain from being so clinical.

I am not sure how to say this without sounding unkind. You seem like a lovely and caring person. You are a good mother. That being said you sort of put out an air of being unapproachable as everything you set out to do is so... I don't know... orchestrated. While a good chunk of DB is having a plan so emotions don't get the better of you, it seems your planning has eliminated any spark of the natural progression of personal growth.

That is not to say you are not growing because it seems you are. I guess I would suggest to avoid such "businesslike" approaches to select areas of your life. It seems a bit cold and scientific IMO. If you want to let loose (whatever that may mean to you) then simply do it and don't plan (A) (B) and (C) as to how you will let loose. I think if you can release your own walls things might become easier.

I really don't understand the male friends as allies goal you have posted before. You have shared your fantasy about the man in the jazz club, you have spoke in a tone of admiration about your "alpha male" C and now you seek males as allies. I guess what I am trying to say (in a rather garbled fashion) is it feels to me as if you crave a strong man in your life that somehow will "help" with your marriage. I am not saying it is the wrong approach it just seems very odd.

[Cyrena]

I have to confess, I rather wondered about the goal of having male "friends and allies." What would these allies be allying themselves with/against?

While my H was having his EA, he used the old brainwashing line that they were "just friends." When I tried to point out ways in which it was NOT a simple friendship, he snarked angrily, "So you're saying I can never talk to another woman again!!"

I did considerable research into the question of appropriate friendships between married people and opposite-sex friends. Most experts agreed that while they could enrich a person's life, such relationships required firm boundaries. Most importantly, they should *never* involve close emotional sharing. Because men become protective when a woman reveals her vulnerability to them, and women feel close to someone they've confided in, being-in-love feelings easily arise. These make it difficult for the married person to continue to have an intimate relationship with his/her spouse. Therefore, the consensus was, yes, have the opposite-sex friend with whom you share a mutual interest, but keep your personal conversations either for your spouse, or for your same-sex friends. Often, when people are desperate to find opposite-sex confidants, it's a sign that they have problems with same-sex friendships.

Months after ending his EA, my H came to me and said that he finally understood why his primary emotional relationship needed to be with me, and finally saw what boundaries he had to put in place with all the women in his workplace (of whom the EA had been one) to prevent another inappropriate relationship from being kindled.

You seem a very focused, introspective person, and I'm not saying your goal of having male friends (and allies?) is wrong, but have you fully assessed why this is so important to you, and what you hope to get out of it? Also, given that you've been in the situation of having a male friendship end a loving relationship, have you thought about what boundaries you'd set in these new relationships?

[flowmom]

I really don't understand the male friends as allies goal you have posted before. You have shared your fantasy about the man in the jazz club, you have spoke in a tone of admiration about your "alpha male" C and now you seek males as allies. I guess what I am trying to say (in a rather garbled fashion) is it feels to me as if you crave a strong man in your life that somehow will "help" with your marriage. I am not saying it is the wrong approach it just seems very odd.

I can see how it would seem strange. I guess there is a lot of context missing for readers to understand my comments.

I guess some of it is not having a father since the age of 3. It sounds dumb, but that's a base of security that most women take for granted (even if the R isn't perfect) that I don't have.

Also, since becoming a mother I live in a woman's world. My "job" as a SAHM is of zero interest to men. Because of our special needs child, I've had less opportunity to GAL than most mothers...I've given up a lot. I have trouble relating to men, not as individuals, but as a gender. Their attitudes/priorities feel alien to me right now...I never used to feel that way. The people that I have things in common with now are all women. I don't feel that's healthy for me as a person.

I've never crossed a line (physical or emotional) in the 15 years of being in a committed monogamous R with H. I know where the line is and I think I even knew when I crossed it in my last R.

But pre-mothering and while I was in a R with H, I used to have wonderful and totally appropriate shared experiences with men, mostly through my work. I was part of teams of men and women and we had great experiences together, that weren't about sex or self-disclosure. A lot of my peak experiences were being dropped off by helicopter in totally remote and beautiful wilderness areas with a colleague, often male. We shared all sorts of experiences, including breaking through the shaky ground of a wetland, being tracked by aggressive bears, getting lost, etc. And it always ended up with beers at the pub at the end of the day. Sometimes I'd be alone on a trip with one other guy, or sharing a home with colleagues for months on end and hot-tubbing with them every night. These trips were really bonding experiences and I had great connections with the men and women who I worked with. Totally platonic with not the slightest sniff of inappropriate self-disclosure on anyone's part. I could be "part of the gang" in a sitch where my role was not defined by my gender (as now: wife, mother).

Am I making any sense?

[Butterfly1]

I totally understand. My best friends have usually been men. My one dearest and best female friend that I've known since birth she has no dad and she needs stong men in her life too. It's natural to me, not strange at all.

[Cyrena]

Your explanation makes sense--I'm sorry you didn't have the experience of having a dad beyond age 3. Given that (I assume) you're unlikely to be doing any helicopter drops with guys in the near future, have you thought about what sorts of bonding experiences with men you might have in your current life?

In an earlier thread, you talked about wanting to go to a jazz club with a male friend, while leaving the responsibility for whether his wife felt comfortable with this completely in his hands. From what I read, this is not an acceptable boundary--if a woman wishes to befriend a MARRIED man (or a man to befriend a married woman), she needs to show respect for that person's partner by including her in the relationship as well. I'm not sure where the discussion on your earlier thread ended up, and quite likely you're aware of this necessary boundary, but I realized I forgot to add it earlier.

[newmama]

Flowmom, I like the intellectual, businesslike aspects to your personality! But have you been able to laugh and let loose in awhile? Maybe tonight!?

[mindfull]

Hey, Flowmom !!! I need to read up on your sitch! Perhaps this evening!!!

[Number 8]

Helicopter drops? Wilderness and wild carnivores? flowmom, you are my new hero. You impress me more and more every day.

[flowmom]

In an earlier thread, you talked about wanting to go to a jazz club with a male friend, while leaving the responsibility for whether his wife felt comfortable with this completely in his hands. From what I read, this is not an acceptable boundary--if a woman wishes to befriend a MARRIED man (or a man to befriend a married woman), she needs to show respect for that person's partner by including her in the relationship as well.

This is tricky because I was friends with this man before he even met his wife. Then I met her once about 10 years ago, and I don't even remember her name or what she looks like. Now, I don't even know if he's married, and if he is I have no way of contacting her. My friend doesn't have R status on his FB page. I haven't "included" her, because I wasn't the one who suggested going out to catch up...it was my friend. I really don't see a way of "including" her that wouldn't seem really wierd and awkward for everyone involved, since she and I don't know one another at all. Among my friends, opposite-sex friendships from before a R are considered innocent until proven guilty. I think I set a boundary with my friend in how I worded things, and I could tell from his wording that he understood that I was interested in a friendly get-together and nothing more. I understand the concern, but in my experience long-term male female friendships can remain platonic on a long-term basis, even if there isn't a close friendship with spouse(s).