Trying to move on

[ClingingToHope]

I have a feeling we are going to end up in mediation. I asked my attorney what happens if we can't agree, he said then we go to mediation.

Well, I'm never going to agree to her having sole custody. That's a deal breaker for me.

When I moved out, first I moved into a friend's house and couldn't take the girls. Then I moved in to this apartment. I was a fool and was being the nice guy, feeling eventually she'd come to her senses, and didn't see an attorney.

I should have insisted for 50/50 right away. Now I may have to fight a bit.

I wish I shared your optimism. Only a miracle will save this M. I'm trying to prepare myself for the choppy waters ahead.

[ClingingToHope]

Another point is that I originally brought up collaborative divorce and kind of a do-it-yourself divorce. The problem though was my heart wasn't in it. I'd have to agree this is the right thing to do and sit down together and work it out.

I don't think this is the right thing to do. And I have a feeling W has a lot of work lawyers giving her advice. She works at a place that is 90 percent female and it seems like 75 percent of her co-workers are on their second and third marriages.

It's not a very guy friendly place. In the past that worked for me. She'd go out with her co-workers a couple of times a year and then come home and be all over me. I'd ask her why and she said she spent the whole night listening about how this guy cheated, that guy ended up in jail, this other guy blew all their money, another never helped around the house.

It made her appreciate me more.

[TulsaTime]

CTH,

PMA, confidence, be fun, humorous, bold, sweep her off her feet.

What do you have to lose? It's hard but make an effort to focus on these things.

[Onthemountaintop]

Well, I'm never going to agree to her having sole custody. That's a deal breaker for me.

I doubt she'd ask for it. If you assume the best from her, but prepare for the worst, it might help. Remember, she might be afraid, too. One book I read suggested (I think accurately) that women fear most being isolated/alone/rejected. Even though this is her doing it, if she was saying on your 5th yr that she felt you would leave, she might be doing the D having convinced herself that you would have left and that her lack of effort was just saving resources. Like you said, she's surrounded by bad examples of a M.

Unless you are abusive or mentally unstable CTH, I don't think you have to worry that any judge will give her sole custody. If she argued that against you, it sounds that you have a good memory of enough events that you'll be fine. I've read custody is decided by who did what in the marriage, as well as who is doing what. You are spending time with them in ways that amount to more. I would only worry about proving you can uphold (after payments) an apt/house that is sufficient and stable for your girls - even better, more stable. There is some resarch that shows that girls particularily do poorly when the biological father is not around as a teenager. If I remember the research study link, I'll send it, otherwise, 4 hours of google found it for me.

Have you attempted what TulsaTime suggested...if you wanted to? W&I are separated in the same house with a D date in May if I/we can't figure it out (so far...improving). So if I decided to just move on and ignore her, focus on myself, I would've lost the opportunity to touch her and say I wanted to be with her. I'm not saying pursuing, just look for the opportunity to surprise her. If she was in an A, you were violent, you weren't trying to improve yourself, you were always flirting with others, then there might be no way. If not, there is always a possibility, no matter how small. But if you don't look for it, it could never be found.

My W's biggest concern was trying only to be rejected. I told her that if she didn't try, it only guaranteed rejection. It hurts to be kicked to the curb. I think it hurts more to think 'if only' - I keep harping because you've mentioned wanting her to change her mind so often, that I think you need to put that into action.

I'm not sure if I or others have mentioned it, but reading "Improve your marriage without talking about it" helped me understand my W's insane fear of rejection/desertation. Even if you don't want to try anymore, it might be worth it because I've tested it on my students, and I think it is true about elementary girls/boys, too.

[ClingingToHope]

PMA, confidence, be fun, humorous, bold, sweep her off her feet.

What do you have to lose? It's hard but make an effort to focus on these things.

I was talking to my sister about the DB rules of giving them time and space to miss you. It seems so against nature and it hasn't worked for me. Shouldn't I be fighting for her?

But I have reached out several times in these 10 months only to be harshly rebuffed.

The last time we had an R talk was in October when she again reiterated that "she doesn't love me and doesn't think she ever loved me. She had doubts six months into the marriage."

In December, for Christmas, we spent seven hours together with her family and I was the man she always wanted me to be.

A week later she said she'd decided on her lawyer and wanted to sit down and work out an agreement.

I don't believe for a second that she never loved me -- that's the brick wall she's built over time to justify this -- but until I see some kind of change, some doubt, some reason to believe that things are going to change, I have to keep soldiering on.

I so want to go over there and try to sweep her off her feet, but it would just not work. She's scheduled a trip to South Dakota with this group of redneck motorcyclists because her best friend lives in a tiny town and hangs out with these hicks.

Her never-ending search for the magic thing that will make her happy goes on. Right now, the divorce is the thing that will make her happy. You should just hear her voice on the phone when she can turn the conversation into a D talk. She's just so sure of herself.

[ClingingToHope]

I doubt she'd ask for it. If you assume the best from her, but prepare for the worst, it might help. Remember, she might be afraid, too.

There's two things at work here. There's joint custody -- which I'll get -- that's the right to have a say in major decisions in the girls lives.

Then there's "physical custody" and she's asking for sole "physical" custody while I get visitation rights.

That's what I'm fighting against. If she gets it, I have to pay her 28 percent of my net income even though they are basically with me nearly half the time.

If you factor in that I'll have to pay half insurance premiums, daycare and summer camps and she makes more, that would leave me with about $900 every two weeks while she'd be getting $2,100.

My attorney said he doesn't believe a lawyer will find that fair. That gives me some hope, but now that she's leaving it up to her lawyer it's going to be a fight.

I didn't want any of this. I just wanted a second chance.

[Drew]

If she get 28% of your net income as child support, she has to pay for insurance, daycare, etc. out of that. She doesn't get 28% AND half of expenses, it's one or the other.

[awest1217]

The only other thing you might have to do is get a specific amount of life insurance where the girls are the beneficiary so in case, God forbid, anything happens to you, they are still taken care of. Drew is right, the other stuff, unless you agree to it, that W has to pay must come from the 28%. She doesn't get more. Hopefully that at least is a load off.

[Onthemountaintop]

I didn't want any of this. I just wanted a second chance.

That is exactly what I'm talking about. You really do seem to want to not progress with this D. She seems like she's going to be the 'nasty' divorcee, too. I really hope the things I'm saying don't make you go backwards in moving on, so read with caution~

My IC said that I had to decide if I am afraid of losing my W, or losing the idea of being M to her - which one is it for you? In some areas, you seem like you really love her and don't want to lose her. That you want to have her change her mind. In others, you've written off any hope and seem quite angry with her. The anger that I read in your posts (not know) seems very deep, the kind I'd have problems hiding.

Like you, I realized that the D will totally mess me up financially. I tried suggesting things to W to make a middle ground where the kids don't feel like they have a home with her, and a closet with me. Where my own love for my kids wouldn't be sacrificed so I or she could live apart. For you, it's 28%. For me, it is almost 45%! Like you, my net income would be low enough that I don't know how I could even handle an apartment, never mind a second home for my kids. Yesterday I came clean and told her that I'm really trying to make our M work, but I need to get the fear out of the way so love can grow. It was hard to tell her. If we aren't working on fears though, I don't believe permanent goals can be met.

DB is busting, that's hard and painful work. In Basketball, to beat the best team, you seem hundreds of strategies, not one or two. Are you "man enough" to go to her and touch her cheek kindly or hold her hand while you talk knowing she might reject you and still continue with a smile on your face? I'm not sure if I would be, but I had to try because there was no way that I would improve my sitch by running away. If I hadn't gone to touch my W and more, then our near certain D would have already occured. We're not out of the woods yet, and there are days I feel I shouldn't try, but I do. Some days, I was very happy to get a D because it would mean an end to the life I couldn't handle with my W. She gave up on me for a while and that made me sad, but much more ready for a D. If your W feels you've gone from the R talks that rarely work + pursuing to giving up, you are just releasing her from the guilt of choosing to D.

So some questions if you want to answer them:
1. Are you willing to try different approaches? You've been told to not pursue, to go on with life, etc. What has not worked?
2. Do you think your IC could hely you figure out what she is so upset about.
3. Are you willing to accept continous meanness/rejection/fears, if it increases a slim chance of a M from a near certain D?
4. (Others would disagree) Are you willing to try to understand her better, so that you can figure out what is bothering her and why she feels so hopeless that a D cheers her up?

I'm not defending your W - she seems to deserve punishment from what you've told us. But if you really love her, keep reading and making long term changes like you have been in the last year.

Don't lament, but don't give up either - unless deep down, you don't want her in your life. If that is the case, then fully move on.

[ClingingToHope]

My IC said that I had to decide if I am afraid of losing my W, or losing the idea of being M to her - which one is it for you? In some areas, you seem like you really love her and don't want to lose her. That you want to have her change her mind. In others, you've written off any hope and seem quite angry with her. The anger that I read in your posts (not know) seems very deep, the kind I'd have problems hiding.

I've been struggling with the first question ever since I moved out. Am I truly in love with W or just addicted to being in the relationship? I don't know if I've totally figured that out. The money thing is a major issue for me right now. Like you said, it's bothering me that they have a "home" with W and not with me.

If I had certainty that I'd be OK for the next 10 years -- in a nice place that is comfortable for the girls -- then would I be so desperate not to lose her?

A little part of me is curious to see if there is something better for me out there. Even at our happiest, I admit it wasn't perfect because we are so different.

But I still feel I am "the one" for her. That together we are better than apart. I really am co dependent. Her happiness meant/means everything to me. I sacrificed my career and our financial future to lift her out of funks or help her advance her career. To me, we were a team.

You asked if I have the strength to throw myself out there again. Right now, no. I feel so beaten down right now. I feel as if I'm a piece of paper she is crumbling up and throwing away.

I am a hopeless romantic and it was last March where I did throw myself out there and admit a lot of my faults and that I didn't love her unconditionally and for three weeks things were back to normal. She even told our daughter's counselor that things were good between us.

I fell in love all over again.

Then the weirdest thing closed the door. My D10 was crying about school and I asked her what was really wrong, this was normal kid stuff. She said she was really upset about W and I. And I told her that we'd had a long talk and I think things were OK.

That night, when W got home, D10 went running up to her and hugged her and said she was so happy that we weren't getting divorced.

The look of anger on her face was deep. She told me later that if the M fails it's now her fault.

And the D train started to rumble again.

I think of that and wonder if I can't do it again, if I can't break through the wall one more time.

But then I also remember the wall came down for three weeks and then went up again, stronger and higher than before.

W has some deep issues she needs to deal with as well -- I don't know if she'll ever face them if we are M -- she seems so sure that I'm the ultimate source of her unhappiness. She's always felt like she wasn't good enough -- didn't have enough education, didn't like to stay active, didn't like to socialize much -- and that's beaten down her already shaky self esteem.

I've thought a lot about things. I can't stop. People tell me that will change. I can't imagine that.