H said, "I decided not to buy that house down the street because you might not like my deviant lifestyle and you might come over and bang on my door and I'll have to call the cops...."
I had no idea where that came from. I joked with him saying, "Oh sure, I know your deviant lifestyle - it consists of looking at your phone all night." But I really thought - what? an OW? Drugs? or is this just a joke?
But it got to me and later I said, "i know why you really won't buy the house - because if we D, you don't want to be near me so we won't fight." H says that's only half of it and refused to say more. I started asking him not to drop "jokes" that I don't know if they are true or not that upset me, that I don't know how to take them and they upset me. He started raising his voice and shutting me down. I just wanted him to apologize for his meanness. This is my problem.
The rest I already posted.
SO looking back, I could have said, "Well sounds like if you have a deviant lifestyle you should be worried, not me." or "Please don't say flippant comments you aren't ready to explain." or just walked away. Then I should have soothed myself and told myself that it was none of my business. I NEED TO STOP CARING WHAT HE IS DOING OR NOT DOING!
H has asked in MC that when he asks me to drop it, that I do. I eventually did, but after he had started getting mean. I need him to hear that I get hurt by these "jokes" and if he wants me to not feel upset and to drop it, then I need him to be more considerate.
I'll get there ladies. Don't give up on me.
Before bed, I said let's just chalk this up to you are sick and grumpy and I'm PMSing and grumpy. He said he didn't have to chalk it up to anything. I don't know what that means, but he let it go just like I did and that is progress. The reason I'm kicking myself is that the night was showing progress initially, he was reading what I was doing on the computer and he usually keeps a huge distance between what I'm doing and he's doing and shows no interest whatsoever.
And later I told him that when we go into the L next week to sign the legal separation the least he could do is take me to lunch. And that if he could spend thousands on a L, he could spare the three dollars for a stupid VDay card. At first he was baffled how this could be emotional for me. I asked him to think how he would feel if he wanted the M and I had a project of legal separation, he might be emotional too. He really listened and watched me tear up. He said he would take me to lunch and give me some Valentines.
I don't know if any of this is progress any more or me just taking crap from him because it's only slightly better than D. 2x4s welcome.
Well done on turning it round, stopping his baits in his tracks is going to take practise hun so dont beat yourself up tomorrow is always another day and even though you blew it, its how you pick things up and move forward.. like me having to ask to kiss and make up the other day when H's spending money on petrol got to me!
Also well done for getting your lunch request in, that was very sneakily done.
H does seem to be lacking in social skills, as you know my H is in IT although not a geek, but Im in IT and have worked with the geek brigade, love the txting him when he ignores you! Its rather ironic that my H also adores the cat, I know it really bugs him when she has a mummys girl day well she isnt daft he left her once and she knows what side her bread is buttered. The cat letter was hilarious..
One thing that jumped out on mean outta your posts was that H had requested that you stop when he asks you to stop.. is that because you have previously suffered from badgering disease or is he using it to shut you down and control you! Might be a good one to add to your MC .. How do I discuss some thing that is important to me when I want to respect H's request to stop but it will need dealing with at some point!
Hope today is better for you hun and its good to hear you laughing at our ideas.
____________________________
W 47 H 47 M 24 T 30
Once lost but now found and happily married again!
I hate to say it, but I think that you need to shift your focus away from H. You're getting trapped by him because your focus is on him a lot. Even when he's giving really clear "leave me alone, I sick" signals, you are not respecting them. The answer is NOT willpower and preparing the perfect responses. The answer is -- most of the time -- your mind and self being involved in something else. You can smile and even include him in what you're doing if he wants to, but he gets the space that he needs because you're busy having fun and doing stuff. I think you need to plan, plan, plan. When he's home, you need to have a plan of how you're going to spend your time. Maybe you plan specific crafts to do with your S, maybe you start a "cooking club" with your S where he picks the meal and you act as his assistant and he is the head chef, maybe you have people over for casual meals, maybe you do a home organization project with your S. Do stuff that H can choose to be part of, but that takes your focus off him.
Over here in piecing, you have challenges that I don't have. It's easy for me to stick to being busy when H is around because I know that he does not want to interact with me at all. You are dealing with the mixed messages from your H. He loves you and wants to be with you, but needs a lot of space and time to come back into the M. The familiarity of the situation invites all the old patterns to come back. You don't have the distance of separation to protect yourself from your own neediness.
I really think that Why Men Love Bitches book, or maybe the married one, could help you with figuring out how to avoid pursuer/doormat mode with your H. And I think it's working inside and out -- you act like you have self-respect on the outside, and that works its way in. You also work on cultivating self-love and self-respect on the inside, and that will manifest itself on the outside. The first step in the book The Art of Extreme Self-care is to look in the mirror and say "I love you H4L" every day for a month. Sounds cheesy, but it's something that even a mother has time for, and I really think that things like that work magic over time.
me: 42 | STBXH: 41 | T: 18 | M: 10 | separation: Jan 3, 2010 | they deserve better: S7 & D4 current thread: http://tinyurl.com/3y8sxcp .: first breathe, then heal, then start LIVING :.
One thing that jumped out on mean outta your posts was that H had requested that you stop when he asks you to stop.. is that because you have previously suffered from badgering disease or is he using it to shut you down and control you! Might be a good one to add to your MC .. How do I discuss some thing that is important to me when I want to respect H's request to stop but it will need dealing with at some point! [/quote]
Well I think it's a bit of both. He shuts me down to control me, for sure. It's the bait - says something he knows will spin me and purposely shuts me down. He does not shut me down in a nice way either.
My problem is that when I am in panic mode, or mad being treated this way, I badger. It's a dynamic. Now I'm working on stopping my side but feel it's unfair that he continues the control tactics. WE've discussed it in MC and agreed whoever "shuts it down" needs to do it kindly and bring it back up when they are calmer. H is still throwing his toys and refusing to do either. I'm still working on my ODP so I kicked myself for beginning the old badger, but I did stop! I would have continued the pushme/pullyou thing into the night a year ago.
The crazy thing is at other times he badgers me incessantly - I'm too upset to write it now, but let's just say this morning was a doozy. I kept asking him to just stop and let it go and he escalated and stormed out with a shouting tantrum, abandoning his responsibility of taking S to school. I'm rethinking this whole DB thing - maybe I need an abuse support site instead!
Again this morning I stayed calm, however. Its the absolute ignorance to any hypocrasy that is just infuriating.
I hate to say it, but I think that you need to shift your focus away from H. You're getting trapped by him because your focus is on him a lot. Even when he's giving really clear "leave me alone, I sick" signals, you are not respecting them. The answer is NOT willpower and preparing the perfect responses. The answer is -- most of the time -- your mind and self being involved in something else. You can smile and even include him in what you're doing if he wants to, but he gets the space that he needs because you're busy having fun and doing stuff. I think you need to plan, plan, plan. When he's home, you need to have a plan of how you're going to spend your time. Maybe you plan specific crafts to do with your S, maybe you start a "cooking club" with your S where he picks the meal and you act as his assistant and he is the head chef, maybe you have people over for casual meals, maybe you do a home organization project with your S. Do stuff that H can choose to be part of, but that takes your focus off him.
Over here in piecing, you have challenges that I don't have. It's easy for me to stick to being busy when H is around because I know that he does not want to interact with me at all. You are dealing with the mixed messages from your H. He loves you and wants to be with you, but needs a lot of space and time to come back into the M. The familiarity of the situation invites all the old patterns to come back. You don't have the distance of separation to protect yourself from your own neediness.
I really think that Why Men Love Bitches book, or maybe the married one, could help you with figuring out how to avoid pursuer/doormat mode with your H. And I think it's working inside and out -- you act like you have self-respect on the outside, and that works its way in. You also work on cultivating self-love and self-respect on the inside, and that will manifest itself on the outside. The first step in the book The Art of Extreme Self-care is to look in the mirror and say "I love you H4L" every day for a month. Sounds cheesy, but it's something that even a mother has time for, and I really think that things like that work magic over time.
I agree with most of what you are saying and thanks for the 2x4. I do need to stop focussing on H. It's tough when I walk on eggshells around his anger. and, when he is here, I never include him anymore in what S and I, or I myself are doing. Quite the opposite. I continue as if he isn't here and sadly he often sinks into his computer or phone ignoring S. I've stopped including him because he can make his own choices.
But internally, for my self esteem, I need to stop feeling so awful when he is angry. I need to somehow be able to disengage and really feel it is his problem, not mine. Have the self esteem to know in my heart that if he can't own up to his problems, I don't want this marriage even though sometimes I think I do. It's the incessant hope of DB - the never give up syndrome - that can also be a mental detriment. It can lead to temp taking all the time, hoping for positive changes that probably won't come. I need to stop thinking about him in the big picture.
My problem is that when I am in panic mode, or mad being treated this way, I badger. It's a dynamic.
This isn't just you. It's classic male-female behavior. Called pursuer-avoider in some communication books. Look it up. You might have had a worse case of it after years of engaging in it, but my H and I got caught up in pursuer-avoider too. The compromise is supposed to be whoever gets "flooded" calls a time out, but the discussion needs to be rescheduled or else the time out just becomes a tool to avoid talking about anything ever. Or something like that.
Oh H4L, it's sounding rough over there. You're reminding me of how I spent most of last fall with H. Just doing my own thing while H tapped away on his computer. Walking on eggshells. His anger. And your child soaking it all in. I never cracked that nut, and my fear is that if we ever do start piecing, we'll be right back there again.
I hope your MC can help you with this. The tension and conflict are draining you...this needs to be addressed. Hugs to you.
me: 42 | STBXH: 41 | T: 18 | M: 10 | separation: Jan 3, 2010 | they deserve better: S7 & D4 current thread: http://tinyurl.com/3y8sxcp .: first breathe, then heal, then start LIVING :.
I agree you need to find a way to keep hope alive but also accept that if improvements aren't made on his end that you are better off in the long run. It's a balance. You will get there. He might still make improvements too. He might just be slower than you because you have more incentive now than he does.
You're both right - the pursuer/avoider pattern is something universally talked about in R books - thanks for reminding me to detach when we are in the pattern.
And yes, this is taking a toll. The MC is definitely encourIaging me to speak up and get this addressed. It's been on the table the past month.
Crazy day - big progress. Blowup this morning, I stayed calm and drew a boundary! I remember how you've all been coaching me and kept reminding myself he needs to make improvements, treat me better, etc. We talked after and I explained we need to be calm and gentle while S is sick. He listened and later....HE SHOWED UP WITH BELATED VALENTINE CANDY BOXES FOR BOTH OF US! I kept reminding me of FM's goal - H will give apology or show remorse after being mean. I think I got a variation He later said he felt bad about how he had handled the morning. That was progress for him to admit that.
Had a FABULOUS night with S who was thrilled everyone was calm, and happy. He kept kissing and hugging us and laughing. We all had a lot of laughs.
After S went to bed, we had to go over the paperwork of the separation agreement. We had a long R talk afterward and it was really good. We cracked it all open. Started with typical WAS script - "you have more hope for reconsiliation than I do", "I don't see how we could be together again" blah blah blah and eventually went deeper...
The crux is I remembered what rr22 said - I pushed him to be clear on what he wants. I told him it's time to get a direction in MC - say what is good and bad in our R, and what he would like to see in the big picture to move forward.
He agreed!
huh?
Later it came out he's been wanting to "bring things up" (big R problems that we need to look at) that he's been scared to bring up. He sheepishly admitted he's scared of me blowing up. He even admitted that legal sep is red herring to avoid opening up. He also admitted that even with D papers in hand, that is just an excuse to not open up. It still can't protect one emotionally.
I sat there stunned and said, "YOU are scared of ME? I see myself as the one scared of YOU" I realized all this anger, the moving out, the legal papers, all a defense against fear. He said, "Pathetic, huh?" I saw the vulnerable kitten under that raging bull. I said "no way. I'm just as pathetic then."
He admitted, "As much as I resist these late night talks, I'm glad to have come to this realization. Even if it did take me a year. Now I just have to do it."
This is big. This is touching the vulnerable stuff under the anger. We had some laughs as well after that - and H seemed just more vulnerable than usual.
My new attitude is to remind myself he's scared too - and this is why he needs space. This is why he's on pins and needles, attacking at the slightest thing. This is why he's built a wall around himself. Fear. Just as I am feeling fear. If we can start there, we may be able to work through it. This was the first night we actually talked about our MC goals and what we are feeling on a deep level. I laughed, I cried, I feel hopeful again.
He later said he felt bad about how he had handled the morning. That was progress for him to admit that.