Thought I was done

[Bworl]

When your wife comments that you are clearly always wanting to spend time with her, she gives away your most glaring weakness right now.

While I don't advocate the same as rob might, I will say that reaching out to her while she is actively pursuing another person makes no sense.

Your position was supposed to be that as long as she is seeking another, the two of you are nothing but coparents.

You can be civil, even pleasant, without appearing needy. It seems from her comment that she is NOT getting that impression from you.

Here is possibly where rob's hardcore line and my seemingly softer line meld. Your wife should not get your time and attention when she is involved with another. Keep things to business and kids.

But for goodness sake, don't implement such a thing and make it seem like you are shunning her or punishing her. It should be matter of fact, and it should be clear to her that you are MORE than ok with the status of things - that is, YOU MOVING ON TO A HAPPY LIFE and her continuing to pursue her fantasy boy toy.

Sometimes you gotta fake it till you make it, you know?

I'd say, "Sweetheart, I'm not your friend, not while you're pursuing another man. We are co-parents and I'll cooperate just fine on that end. But other than that, I'm not investing myself in a relationship when you've made your choice."


Then calmly, and oh so cooly, walk away.


Blessings,

Bill


P.S. Stop fixing her problems while she's emailing her boy toy! If she needs something fixed, she should call him. And by the way, does he sound like a great catch or what?

[NoLongerHere]

I guess the question is, do you want to be the second-best? You're not "true love" but at least you want to spend time with her?

That is not how an even vaguely-healthy adult person loves. IMHO. You are worth more than a bandaid for her loneliness.

No, I don't. And I am worth more than that.

Bill, I think our situations are very similar, and although I stopped snooping long ago...

Yeah, I did too. At some point I started again. And I hate doing it. Yeah, that's easy to say, isn't it - I guess I still have a need to know what I'm dealing with, through all this back-and-forth. I don't trust a damn thing she says. But when's all said and done, very soon she won't be my wife anymore, and it's really just an invasion of privacy. And honestly, it just leads me to be hurt, and is a source of anger. So, yeah, I know that I need to grow up on that one.

I refuse to be second choice. I'm happy and secure enough now that I'm willing to face the future without her. My W made a half hearted move to end it with OM, but she made it so clear how little she felt toward me that I said I was done and moving on. She got very angry and went running back to OM. I knew it was my only hope of ever getting the respect necessary if we were to ever try to reconcile.

I've been there, I've walked off, I've given my speeches, gave her my ring back, told her to get out, gone and dated, etc. But I guess none of that means much because I've backslid. Yep.

Do you think her saying "I should just go back to Bill and give up on true love" is a slap in your face? Sounds like one to me.

Yep. Somewhat numb to it maybe at this point, but this the kind of thing that led me in therapy last week to tell her that she was despicable. She took our relationship and treated it like garbage. I've told her that too.

When we started dating and I was the one who was less vested in our R, she pursued me like crazy. No coincidence that the emptiness started after we had kids and I started behaving as though nothing would ever make me leave her and the kids. No matter how poorly she behaved, how selfish, how much she neglected me, I was a rock, absolutely devoted and committed.

Hmm. Very similar in my case.

When your wife comments that you are clearly always wanting to spend time with her, she gives away your most glaring weakness right now.

Yep, that's what I thought when I read it.

While I don't advocate the same as rob might, I will say that reaching out to her while she is actively pursuing another person makes no sense.

Your position was supposed to be that as long as she is seeking another, the two of you are nothing but coparents.

You can be civil, even pleasant, without appearing needy. It seems from her comment that she is NOT getting that impression from you.

Here is possibly where rob's hardcore line and my seemingly softer line meld. Your wife should not get your time and attention when she is involved with another. Keep things to business and kids.

But for goodness sake, don't implement such a thing and make it seem like you are shunning her or punishing her. It should be matter of fact, and it should be clear to her that you are MORE than ok with the status of things - that is, YOU MOVING ON TO A HAPPY LIFE and her continuing to pursue her fantasy boy toy.

I have had a hard time with this. I've oscillated between too cold and too available. I see it, I know it, and it's been my problem since this began. I need to change my behavior.

Sometimes you gotta fake it till you make it, you know?

I've had a hard time with that too. I find it difficult to smile - the projecting PMA hasn't been a strong point. Instead I'm blank. For example, today, I came to pick up the kids, she said something briefly, and then said, "Are you OK?" And I said "yeah." And she said, "It's weird talking to you with your sunglasses on." I must be Terminator-like.

I'd say, "Sweetheart, I'm not your friend, not while you're pursuing another man. We are co-parents and I'll cooperate just fine on that end. But other than that, I'm not investing myself in a relationship when you've made your choice."

Yeah, I've said that too - sent that email, telling her I'm not willing to extend the divorce while she's seeing someone else. For that, she thought I was an a$$hole. Oh well.

P.S. Stop fixing her problems while she's emailing her boy toy! If she needs something fixed, she should call him. And by the way, does he sound like a great catch or what?

It was a weird situation - I was just dropping off some of the kids things, next thing I know she drags me into the house and says "can you talk to these people?" Next thing I know I'm switching out cables, etc. - when all that needed to be done was switch off the power strip and switch it back on. Appears my annoyance was clear.

Oh, and this guy - don't get me started. I was just floored when I figured it out.

Thanks everyone for the responses.

I started this thread with the question in mind - is this a relationship I'd want back? I still can't answer that. My thoughts have been mostly about my boys recently. They're showing signs of struggling. I'm looking at eating up their college fund for a down-payment on a house. The living standards for everyone will go down. Life is going to be a struggle for some time.

Is that a reason to try? Is it possible to believe that we could rebuild the relationship that, honestly, we had? She told me last night "I really wanted you to be the one." That was a strange thing to hear.

Bill - I think you nailed it on a prior response - when things look up, one of us freaks out. I wonder if there's a part of me sabotaging it. I still have so much anger, I think there's a part of me that can't stand the thought of trying to reconcile.

Anyway, clearly, I've done this all wrong. I've made attempts at doing it right, but have not been consistent. At all.

One thing I need to do now is write up my version of a proposed settlement. I guess I should just move forward with the mechanics of the D. Show I'm not dragging my feet. Push her up to the side of the cliff.

We have therapy tomorrow. I have no idea what to say, what I want or need to say.

[MarkG]

Wow.... why did we all start snooping at the same time? Weirdness. Maybe I can shed some light on this. 1st off, don't continue anything physical or pursuing, and don't give in to her pursuit right away if she starts. If she leaves OM tell her you're still interested but so hurt that you don't know if it will work and you need time to heal. I was reflecting on my W's message to OM and a letter my W wrote me the last time she left, which is how I think I will gauge progress, and you might try too. So here's my W's message to OM:

I just wanted to send u a message telling u how much I love u and I am glad we met because I never see myself complete without u in my life soon we will be a big happy family and live the rest of our lives happy and in love . Everyday I wake up to u and fall in love with u more everyday. Love u sexy

^ ouch.... BUT.... compare that to the letter my W wrote me to get me back the last time (she had a PA, walked away, I moved on, she came back, this was also before we were married)

To the love of my life. I just wanted to write you a note telling you I love you with everything I have. No1 else will ever have my whole heart like you. I have no doubts in my mind that I will never regret to dedicate my whole life to you and our family. All the fears I had about marriage have melted away and now I feel like a little kid on Christmas and I can't wait until I get the ultimate gift of becoming your wifey. So here is a letter for you to read when away from me to let you know I love you (pet name).

Your (pet name),
W

Letters are letters, and the 1 she wrote him doesn't seem to be as deep as the 1 she wrote me, so I'm still comfortable waiting a while to see what happens with them. I'm still going to DB, detach, GAL, and even date. I'm waiting but not letting her know that I am. Even if it doesn't work out I'm prepared for that. Either way it's still too early to move on so I don't mind waiting. It's too early for both you and me to exclude any possibilities, make any sudden moves, or get close to our W's either.

[NoLongerHere]

Hey Mark -

I don't know - W has recently been hot on getting the D done ASAP. Tonight I typed up my thoughts on the settlement. I think I'm going to push ahead.

I'm suddenly feeling a swell of self-respect. I'm pretty sure I don't want to do this anymore.

My son had a hard day today, had a spreader put in his mouth, and he was really throwing a fit - but this isn't the first time I've heard him say that he hates his life. He's nine. He's hitting himself in the head, he bangs his head against the wall. His twin brother is angry - he's dug his nails into his brother to the point here he leaves marks. I lay that at W's feet. She doesn't see it that way though. Yeah, we're taking them to therapy. But I can't stand it.

It's pathetic, what she's chosen to do. And yes, for a marriage I want a real relationship.


I don't know Mark. If I want to point to hope - this is something my wife wrote, on this very message board, on 1/4/2004, the first time we went through this -

Hi Everybody,
I have interrupted Bill's message to you all to say a few words....from the "enemy" (he, he). I'm Bill's wife and I am just as impressed with him as all of you are. I never would have imagined that anyone could love me as much as he has and continues to do so. I have always worked from the basis that people don't change that much after a certain age. It seems to me that most of us are pretty hard-wired after 30, and try as we might, we just are who we are. Bill proved me wrong.
I never wanted to leave Bill. We got married with the understanding that divorce would NEVER be an option. The problem with that statement is that it doesn't take into consideration the quality of that marriage. It is so easy to sink into the comfort zone and basically just go through the motions. Bill had checked out and I just couldn't seem to reach him.
Therapy, the grace of God, and Bill being the amazing human being he is totally saved us. Bill loved me even when it was painful and never accepted defeat, even though it meant facing some very dark demons he had been hiding from. We never called each other names or used put downs and even stood up for each other when others encouraged us to do so. That's our strength, even in the face of splitting up we still had the utmost respect for each other. Even though I questioned whether or not I still loved him, I still saw him as a family member as we always would be bound by our children.
I cannot say enough about how truly amazing I think my husband is. He has become a more amazing father, lover, friend, and life long partner. (And ladies he is just as beautiful on the outside as he is on the inside).
Now I just simply can't get enough of him. So incredible, since just a few months ago I couldn't even imagine us living in the same house together.
Anyway...didn't mean to interrupt, but thought you might like the view from the other side. God bless you all and a sincere "Happy New Year".
Bill's Wife

Yeah. I'm not sure exactly what my point is. I guess that things CAN come back. It CAN be more than second best. I don't know, at that time our problems were different, there was no OM, it seems like I was much better at this DBing thing. Crap, it's late, and I'm rambling.

[NoLongerHere]

Dropped the boys off this morning with W; told her how S9 was behaving - hitting himself in the head, saying he hates his life and he wants to kill himself. (Alarming but hyperbole...) He got a spreader in his mouth yesterday, and finding it very frustrating to eat, but the reaction is over the top, and in line with the other ways he's acting out.

W reached out to hug me when I left, I just shook my head and grunted no.

We have therapy today... what I want to say is that when I think about her "character" that she wants to defend, I think about what's going on with the boys. I want to say that we're there in therapy because she has expressed second thoughts, but then when we talk about it I'm left holding the bag. I'm tired of being jerked around. I want to say that marriage should be a commitment, not something you shrug off. This little speech she likes to give about "we're both good people" I want to object to. I'm a good person. Not so sure about her.

All pretty self-indulgent, huh?

I guess what I really should say is simply that I believe I'm going to be better off after and I'm ready to move forward.

Thoughts are welcome.

Thanks - Bill

[Coach]

This little speech she likes to give about "we're both good people" I want to object to. I'm a good person. Not so sure about her.

If that is what you think then let her know it. "You are not making good choices and your behavior is destructive to the family. It is causing obvious stress and turmoil in the boys. I don't agree with your comment that you are a good person, a good person would be aware of how their behavior affects others. And your behavior is negatively affecting the boys and myself."

Make your case around the behavior that bothers you and you see impacting your kids. I am sure seeing your boys like this is hard. Sending up a prayer for you and your boys.

Cheers

[Puppy Dog Tails]

I'm sorry, but what's a "spreader?"

Puppy

[NoLongerHere]

Orthodontic device. Put into the roof of his mouth to expand the palate and make room for all the teeth. Have to crank it couple of times a day to - well - spread.

Thank you Coach - I appreciate the thoughts and prayers for my boys.

[Puppy Dog Tails]

Ugggh. OK -- thanks.

Puppy

[flowmom]

This is a message my W recently wrote:

Yeah, last night I was on the phone for about an hour with the Dish network people trying to get TV reception again. Bill ended up showing up in the middle of that, which was actually a good thing, as he was able to figure out what went wrong after problem solving for another hour. He was mad at me for not calling him in the first place and then afterward when I invited him to stay and watch a show with us he accused me of just wanting him around to fix stuff. I just can't win! I'm trying to do things on my own, but there is so much with the electronics that I just don't know and truly need help.

Yesterday, I also got in a fight with OM over the phone. I had sent him an e-mail saying that I was disappointed not to hear from him on Valentine's Day and he sent me an e-mail back basically saying that he did wish me a Happy V-Day on Friday when we spoke as I was driving to meet up with you, and that V-Day is one of those days that ruins a lot of relationships. I sent an e-mail back saying, "Seriously, that's your response.". I was mad. And he responded, "Yep" and basically said that what is going on between us may not be healthy since we are both in a bad space right now and that maybe we should just reconnect once we get our lives in order. I was heart broken to read that. I'll be damned if someone is going to break up with me (if you can call it that since we barely talk) over e-mail so I called him and told him he needed to do it in person. Well after talking a bit he told me that he had had a bad fight with his parents just moments earlier and that he feels like he is going to have a breakdown over all of the stress in his life. He is starting therapy Thursday. His game plan right now is to just cut everything non-essential out of his life in order to cope in survival mode. I don't understand how I end up being one of the things he pulls away from. For me, he has been a source of comfort. It really hurts my feelings, that for him, I seem to be a burden, even though he doesn't want to call it quits for good. He says he just wants space. I don't see how it is asking that much to just want him to call, e-mail, or text me. I wasn't asking for flowers and candy. I just wanted to know he was thinking about me. I'm afraid that he isn't good enough for me, and that he will always be letting me down. I know I should walk away from this as it doesn't look like he will have anything resolved in his life anytime soon, but I can't help my heart still wanting to be with him. I should just go back to Bill and give up on true love because my heart really just can't take it and at least Bill wants to spend time with me right now so badly.

What do you think?

How to respond to an email like this from your W? One word back:

Yawn.

You are making yourself way too available. I don't mean this in a mean way, but you might want to read Why Men Love Bitches and try to become a "bitch" -- ie someone who puts their partner in "pursuer mode" by showing self-respect, not rewarding bad behaviour, and not being overly available. Sorry, I haven't read or can recommend the male equivalent.