Is this piecing?

[Freckle6]

I think the way you can get him to want to spend more alone time with you is to be a person that is fun and happy and warm and silly and all that. Just like you'd show a new guy your best behavior if you wanted a R with him, you need to do that with H now. I know it would require a great amount of tongue biting on your part since he seems to love to bait you and likes to show his ugly side to you. Hold it all in and come here and vent or punch pillows after he leaves.

Figure out ways you can react when he makes these jabs (personally, just reading I'm temped to react for you with a cast iron frying pan... ) that diffuses him and leaves you looking like the most patient and sweet person ever. Whether that means ignoring his comments or "agreeing" with him light heartedly and poking fun at your old self or countering it with something he would agree you are great at (like folding fitted sheets or making pies or macrame plant holders). It's hard to advise without seeing all this in action.

What's one thing he's said that is representative of his MO that raises your defenses? I know it's hard hearing the you always and you never statements--maybe extra hard when they ring true and we don't care for those things about ourselves any more than our spouse does.

Or since he doesn't live there anymore, you could institute a new house rule that if anyone wants to complain about something or someone in your house that they need to take their pants off first. That might knock the wind out of his sails.

[flowmom]

I see baiting as a real test of DBing and I think that spouses use it subconsciously to test the waters. When your H baits you, your alarms bells should be going off in your head, ringing "careful, careful, careful". Then think about what your goal is and whether what you want to say/do is going to get you closer to your goal.

I have reacted very defensively in recent years in my M. I didn't realize how much it was poisoning our R . I am proud of how I dealt with H baiting me yesterday. What worked in that case was 1. bringing things back to the present, and 2. reminding him of what we're trying to do here (coparenting in this case). I softly defused the grenade that he threw between us. I was calm enough to see that he was in "attack mode" and I was detached enough to not feel the need to engage with that.

If you can pull it off, IMO the best way to deal with it would be to act as if he was gently poking fun at you (which I know he's not, he's probably just indulging in some meanness), and react with some non-snarky, self-deprecating humour. That would be a great illustration that you have changed. You don't want to fight, you want to have fun. If you can't pull off humour, try to react with dignity...instead of defending yourself, act suddenly bored/distracted and leave the room (not in a punishing way). That leaves him alone to figure out if that's the result that he wanted.

"Defense is the first act of war"
-- Byron Katie

[Butterfly1]

Happy, silly, fun - done that. I literally bite my tongue a lot! I read a list of my 180s that I wrote a few months back and I've done an amazing job at turning into Ms. Calm, happy, upbeat, the works. It has had some effect. But when H continues to jab at me as if I'm some demonic crazy person (especially when that is how he is acting!) it is cuts even deeper!

You must realize from my posts how painful it can be to hold all this in. I've done it, gals. I really have. I may not have responded in the best way, but I didn't lose it, fight back, get weepy and defensive, hurt, whatever. I don't show him any emotional rise.

So finding a stronger response welcome as holding it in now for so many months is really starting to hurt. I mean, it feels demeaning to constantly "take it" without responding. Silence can come across as an agreement, too.

I guess after so many months I should give up hope that he'll come to realize that I have changed. I need to stop hoping for recognition, although that is what my heart is starving for. Especially when he puts it that "he will only reconcile once he believes my changes" well honey he has a lot of changes to do whether he wants to admit it or not. So I've changed and he won't come back because he won't admit it? Starting to feel like a real mindf**k.

Secondly, I need to figure out my responses ahead of time. He's not going to stop jabbing at me - for now - so I need to either go more dark to protect myself, which I hate to do now that the walls are softening and we're in MC, or I need to have some ready made statements on hand. Any suggestions?

Well the examples lately consist of "jokes" (but the VErbal Abuse book says that jokes can be a way of denying how cutting a remark is). I know H's dad used to make "jokes" about H's mom's weight - and it was cruel. So he has the pattern.

Also exactly like his father, he gives more love, respect, and attention to our cat than he does to me. The cat gets constant affection, praise, nobody is to move him from his seat. I mean it's weird. But the wives get pushed around.

So this morning he's "talking to the cat" and warning his dearly beloved that I might do something horrible to this cat like "freak out" or whatever. It sounds ridiculous as I write it. But it really hurt me. Then when I lightly responded that I have stopped doing that for a long time now, he digs in, with a big smile, "That's because I never stick around long enough to find out."

It just appauls me that I know how much change I have implemented, that he takes credit for it, can make fun of me, and all the while make love to the cat to show me that the darn animal deserves more love than I do.

First of all, it just occured to me to get rid of the cat!

Secondly, how can I not be hurt inside by all this? He would have no power and I would know what to do if I wasn't reacting all over the place internally. I know how to stay cool externally, but internally?

Does that make it clearer Freckle?

And thank you all for helping me figure this out. it seems like my next big growth hurdle!

PS - take pants off? Yeah right. He's made it clear he's repulsed by the idea of being naked with me.

Wow, after I read all this, I wonder what I'm even wasting my time with this guy for?....

[Butterfly1]

I see baiting as a real test of DBing and I think that spouses use it subconsciously to test the waters. When your H baits you, your alarms bells should be going off in your head, ringing "careful, careful, careful". Then think about what your goal is and whether what you want to say/do is going to get you closer to your goal.

If you can pull it off, IMO the best way to deal with it would be to act as if he was gently poking fun at you (which I know he's not, he's probably just indulging in some meanness), and react with some non-snarky, self-deprecating humour. That would be a great illustration that you have changed. You don't want to fight, you want to have fun. If you can't pull off humour, try to react with dignity...instead of defending yourself, act suddenly bored/distracted and leave the room (not in a punishing way). That leaves him alone to figure out if that's the result that he wanted.

"Defense is the first act of war"
-- Byron Katie

FM - I love this!! Thank you so much!!!

[Butterfly1]

PS I'm printing out all these suggestions and carrying them in my purse. You women are true gems. Thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[flowmom]

It sounds like the comments are feeling verbally abusive to you, so I can understand your wanting to do something about them, not just ignore them.

I'm finding the book Why Men Love Bitches very useful. There's a lot in there on how a woman can react with dignity and self-respect when they are not being treated well. That book deals with dating and there's a followup book called Why Men Marry Bitches. An amazon reviewer of the latter wrote:

Men will test you, just as women test men. These tests serve a purpose. How you respond dictates the nature of the relationship, and whether get respected as the dreamgirl, or treated as a doormat. You teach people how to treat you. Sherry teaches you how to pass these tests.

As I wrote before, I think the baiting is a test.

[Freckle6]

I think you're a saint for tolerating even 1% of what you have. Really! If this were any other site, I'd probably have completely different advice, but here we're under the assumption that 1) The OP thinks their R is worth restoring and 2) that we vent here and talk about problems so that can skew the big picture.

In my honest opinion, I think his treatment of you is unacceptable and if this were physical abuse, no one here would be telling you to smile and bite your tongue as a fist slams into your face. It is hard to give advice for his obvious verbal abuse to you. Though even if you don't stay together, he's going to continue this way with you unless the MC really gives him an aha! moment, so giving you support and maybe tools so that he doesn't turn you into woman torn down with his words is good no matter what happens in your sitch.

You have made your changes. You're right--he's the one that needs to change himself. Did you say he's in IC as well? I'm sure the house he grew up in plays a big factor in how he's treating you--but that's not a pass for him at all. I think he's threatened by your changes. If you were giving it right back to him, he could keep blaming you for how he acts. Like a "freak-out" from you gives him justification to treat you like that. Now that you aren't doing those things, and if you keep not doing those things, he's not going to be able to ignore that he's the one still acting like an @ss while you're calm and rational.

I know you're hurt. I'd be worried about you if you weren't. I'm not one that can preach detachment because I sucked royally at it, but I'm sure if you figured out how to really do it, it'd do only good things for you. To be able to detach yourself from what he is saying about you and knowing it really has nothing to do with you (because it doesn't--he's bullying you because it makes him feel better about himself).

Right now though, he's not going to validate your growth so recheck that your expectations are set low. He's not in a place where he can see clearly. But we make really cute cheerleaders here, so feel free to brag about your new and improved self and we can try to balance out his negativity.

You're most definitely not some demonic crazy person though. We've been talking here for a couple months and I've yet to see evidence of any demonic qualities.

[Butterfly1]

@FM - Love it= I will check that book out! Gosh how humiliating if I'm to blame for him "treating me like a doormat". Ugh this is hard. Well, I am reading to grow~

@Freckle - whew. thank you. relief. I never know if I'm overreacting to H or if it is as abusive as it feels. Having you reaffirm this helps me feel a lot stronger.

Man, after reading my own post, I have to agree with you. i wouldn't advise me to stay with him either! I really love your advice and appreciate your acknowledgement. I think my goals need to focus on how to stand up to him a lot more. Recognizing verbal abuse is so hard, you think how can this person who once loved me and who I still think I love really be mean? Well time for a reality check!

I have to remind myself that mr. Hope is actually acting unacceptably and I'm letting him get away with it. He is bullying and I'm accepting it. Gosh, what is wrong with me? Time for some major changes. Yes, I've made a lot of changes. But there's still a long way to go and it doesn't have to include getting any recognition from H! You ladies are the BEST cheerleaders I've ever known. THANK YOU!!!

[flowmom]

@FM - Love it= I will check that book out! Gosh how humiliating if I'm to blame for him "treating me like a doormat". Ugh this is hard. Well, I am reading to grow~

Oh, no. You are not to blame for him verbally cutting you down. Not at all. Now I regret posting that quotation.

Do you see any triggers for him making comments like that?

[Butterfly1]

Oh dear, that's me not you. I tend to be hard on myself for not drawing better boundaries! No, we are talking in MC about various triggers, but that one is just randomly spewed - never know when it's coming - connected to fights we've had in the past. The thing he is beginning to have to acknowledge is that those fights were only 50% me. I've been working very hard on owning my 50%. I am at the point I've "listened and validated" and owned up and changed and everything~!

It's just weird. I mean, I would never never never randomly throw out "jokes" like: "Oh cat, remember when H called me a B**ch on Mother's Day? Too bad he can't control his mouth."

Well that would be true. But a completely immature way to vent it. That's what he does. Things will be humming along cordially, even nicely and whammo, some little bird dropping falls right on my head. I seriously need to prepare myself for this. I never realized before tonight how much I've put up with this.