Trying to move on

[mishka422]

Definitely stick to your guns on the email details. You need it in writing. Verbal agreements can't be proven and she seems like she's a little flaky and wishy washy.

Is today your day to pick up the girls anyway or is W supposed to be handling them all day?

[ClingingToHope]

Mishka, it's W's day to handle them but she can't be in two places at once and I'm guessing her mother can't help.

It's not a bother because she asked. She didn't demand. Besides, I'm using this forum to keep track of what I do for the girls in case the custody stuff ends up in mediation.

[mishka422]

Gotcha. At least she asked and didn't demand.

[Onthemountaintop]

Hi CTH,

You mentioned that your daughter has ADHD. So do I, but I was diagnosed as an adult, in part because of the problems (and benefits!) it has caused me in my marriage and work as a teacher.

It's genetic. I didn't read all of your posts, but I was wondering if your W got diagnosed, you, or a relative. There was a recent study linking it to smoking for 1/3 of cases, but the study isn't 100% for sure.

The reason why I asked is that you mentioned that your sex life wasn't so good. Doesn't sound like that is much of an issue now, but I'm thinking...

- if you haven't fully done the D, there's hope, isn't there? You need to GAL in the meantime, but don't give up.
- if neither of you had a diagnosis, consider having that checked out. maybe it is the source of some (not all) of the fears/shame/etc keeping you apart
- I got M almost through impulsivity - bad way to get married to a stranger..., if you guys got married without ever connecting, forgive yourself. Even if she/you don't have ADHD as well, one of your parents may have. Many M problems I've had at the start of the M were because of the way I was parented by my undiagnosed mother. I'm not saying there's a reason for everything, but with ADHD, the typical DB techniques don't always work...if that is the case.

BTW...restraining someone isn't ADHD. It could be oppositional conduct, which comes in houses with instability most often. 60% of ADHD kids have a 2nd problem (mine is mild anxiety). If she needs restraining, you need to talk to your doc about meds if she's using them, some exaggerate problems.

As an ADHD husband, I feel very sorry for what I've put my W through. Still, she's done her share (a bigger one, I think) in making our problems into crisis. Whether daughter, W, yourself, parents...remember that intentions ALWAYS need to be examined, not just actions.

Anyhow, if I'm preaching to the converted, my apologies. I hope there's something to help you feel a bit of hope.

[ClingingToHope]

if you haven't fully done the D, there's hope, isn't there? You need to GAL in the meantime, but don't give up.

Thanks, but I have given up hope. The D will go through. W is bound and determined.

I have not given up hope that down the line, after the D and the house issues are cleared up, that W will realize that I wasn't the reason for her unhappiness.

She's in a continual search for that magic thing that will make her happy. And from 1996 until the end of 2006, we were able to find those things. We bought a house then a better one, we had a kid, then another one, she got promoted, I got promoted, she got promoted, the money was getting better and better.

Then at the end of 2006 a lot just crashed. She got passed over for a promotion by someone younger she hated. I got demoted at work in 2004 and become "super dad," which in a round-about way worked against me because she felt like she didn't measure up. The ADHD issues cropped up and every day was a crisis at school. She stopped taking hormone pills because they made her hungry but still she started to gain weight.

I can go on and on. I didn't turn to anyone, tried to figure things out on my own, and we weren't talking. And now there's no hope that the fog will lift until she actually sees the grass on the other side.

As for D7. We've been going to counseling for her since 2006 and when she loses it, the big blowup, we have to hold her arms and legs and even head a bit because she likes to bite.

Luckily that has happened a lot less because she's getting older and we've figured out the triggers. The big thing we did wrong in the old days was when she did lose it, W especially, would punish her to try to get her to stop. That's called feeding the emotional fire.

By the time it was all over, she was grounded for a month, she'd lost all her toys, every trip we were ever going to take in the future was cancelled.

Then W would go back on all of it anyway -- and then blame me for not being tough enough on her.

[Onthemountaintop]

Ouch. Discipline seems just impossible after a D. You seem to be calm and collected, though, so it sounds like you're going to make it. You're right on, consequences need be logical, timely, and followed through on.

If she realized that you 'weren't the reason for her unhappiness' and she began doing DB stuff herself, do you think your M is worth trying again?

BTW, so does she have/had ADHD or is this just bad behaviour?

[ClingingToHope]

I think W suffers from depression. She was seeing a counselor for it in 2008 and her job -- customer service supervisor for an insurance company, so when you call all mad, don't get what you want from the rep and ask for a supervisor to yell at, that's her job -- makes things worse.

She's unhappy with her life and feels trapped. Can't change her kids, can't sell the house, can't change her mom and sisters, can't find a magic potion to make her a size 4 again, can't turn back the clock to when she was 25 and a dancer, can't change her job because she makes more than $60k without a college degree which is darn near impossible in this town.

There's only one thing she can change -- me.

What still gives me hope -- way down the road -- is that several times in the past three years, even as she pushed me away harder and harder, there would be random nights where she'd come home and she climb over the wall she was building and tell me she loved me, still wanted me and couldn't understand what was wrong with her.

Those nights were so great and then she'd retreat behind the wall. Last year, for three weeks in March, she came out from behind the wall and I thought we had it turned around.

But it didn't last.

For us to ever come together again, she'd need to accept her life for what it is and really work on her own happiness. I was co-dependant, I worked so hard to make her happy and when it didn't work, I'd exhaust myself emotionally and lash out.

The big thing I've learned these past 10 months is that I can't make her happy, only she can do that.

So in a couple of years, if in her search for happiness she figures out I wasn't the problem and wants to work on things, I'd have to be very careful that I wasn't her latest magic thing to make her happy.

It's nice to think about. But W is so stubborn that I can't ever remember her admitting to someone else she was wrong. She'd admit she handled things badly to me, but never to someone else. Her mom is that way.

So even if in her head and heart she realizes she was wrong about us, I can't imagine her admitting it to me.

I still cling to hope. My hope now is that somehow our daughters don't get too damaged by all of this. Lots of pain is coming.

[Onthemountaintop]

I thought it was depression for my W. After every birth, they always ask a mother if she feels depressed. My W would always say no, but they kept calling...

The MC we saw tried to get her to get help, but while she went, she wouldn't open up. Eight months later, she starts IC and later a self-esteem group.

My IC said that with self esteem, my W (and maybe yours) would pull you close, find that she isn't worthy or another excuse, then push you away. Does that sound familiar?

I've been told I "bullied" her into counselling, saying that I would D if she didn't, but I got her to go. She has said before that she feels that she is acting mean, but she 'had to'. In truth, I was not sure when I did this if I wanted to keep trying anyhow, but I can't leave the mother of my kids screwed up and walk away. I may not love her, but I do care a lot.

It seems a lot harder for you - she's driving this one. Did you manage to figure out some of the things you did wrong in the M and do "180s" and turn them around? Can she imagine your life happier if she returned?

For herself, I hope she gets to an IC to show her how much she can change, including making a bad (married or not) relationship with you into something better.

Maybe not a size 4, but a 6? The house might be sellable if you can agree. One thing I told my W was that whether we stay together or not, the house has got to go - to many memories.

Are you still living together?

Maybe some work on being empathic to her might bring her more out of her shell? I've tried that on my W. It helped. Not enough to not need an IC, but enough to help her agree to get an IC. Stuff like, "I know you've felt trapped for a while, it must feel like cra*. Can we try to figure out ways for you to be stronger for the kids?"

[ClingingToHope]

If you look at my sitch, I've been out since Mother's Day 2009. After moving out I went to a marriage/relationship class through church and it was an eye-opener. I learned a lot of the little things I was doing wrong.

I wrote her five long letters revealing what I'd learned and apologizing. She still has them. They are tucked away in a little bag in a closet.

After the first, we had the only positive talk since I moved out. She was happy that I was owning up to my mistakes and believes I am /will be a better person and husband.

But even in that conversation she said she was happier without me because she feels more in control of her life. The telling quote, "I do believe you will be a better person, but it won't be with me."

The house is a major complication because we are underwater on it. We had a flood in 2007 and I had to pull a lot of financial strings to get it fixed. So that upped what we owed to about 98 percent of what it was worth. Then the real estate market crashed and we now owe more than it's worth.

W had a Realtor come through to see if we could sell it for even close to what we owe and the Realtor said no way. She'd need to pour several thousand into it to get it ready for sale.

I could have told her that last year before she threw me out. I'd made a list of things that needed to be repaired or improved. It was 25 items long.

I've tried empathy, but every time I reached out she did more things to push me away.

My W is so closed off that even in good times I couldn't figure out what was going on inside of her. There's an internal struggle that's deep.

I'll go to church or someone else will say something encouraging or give me a reason to believe, and then she'll do something cold and calculating and it snaps be back to my senses.

This M is over and the D process is going to be painful. There are no assets to fight over. Just mountains of debt that W ran up. In the end, she's likely to end up bankrupt and I may as well.

[awest1217]

It is nice to see W asked you for help. If nothing comes out of this, the two of you need to get to a point where you are always civil to one another for the girls. You don't have to be friends, and I don't think you ever could really be friends, but definitely being acquaintances and civil at all times is a good thing. Nice start and maybe she will be more civil when it comes to the D. Also good about sticking to e-mail because then you have everything in writing. The one thing about H always texting me is that I save all of his texts or my texts about him saying he loves me or me saying what I need or him saying what he wants. He deletes everything so I can't check his messages. Having the proof and everythign in writing, I learned through college, is so important.