How to shake up spouse without having an affair?

[ssmguy]

Getting divorced, leaving a relationship that is unhealthy does not make one a failure. I would argue living in a half marriage, that messes with your self esteem and leaves you questioning if you ever really deserved the blessings that a committed, fulfilling intimate relationship may offer is failing yourself.

What if living in an SSM is fulfilling in every way except sexually? What if it does not mess with your self esteem? When you were a teenager, you likely had raging hormones and sexual interests, but you had long periods of time without a sexual partner, and no sex with any of the family members you lived with (hopefully). Did that mess with your self-esteem? No? Well, so you have lived with a family without having sex? That is essentially how it is for me. Now, you can argue all you want that is not SUPPOSED TO BE that way.... uh, yeah, I know.

but living in a marriage that fails to fulfil either partner is a medieval concept for a time when marriages were about family alliances and economic security.

My marriage and family is a fulfilling situation, just not sexually.

I for one would prefer to live alone, honestly and sincerely taking responsibility for my own choices than stay in a marriage because I don’t want to be a statistic …. We’re all statistics … married or otherwise.

Not wanting to become a statistic is not the only reason I'm in my marriage. Just like I didn't run away as a teenager only because I didn't want to become a runaway teenage statistic.

Your view might make good sense for you, and would make your decision easy in my case. But your assumptions don't really apply to me, which is why my decision is not as easy. I think it's in part due to excellent therapy we've had, and being able to keep the sexual issue separate from everything else in our marriage. And also due to the length of time, and having become accustomed to the situation.

Essentially, the way I feel about it is, I have a sense of humor about it, many things I love doing which have nothing to do with this issue, friends and family. And the only thing that's a "problem" is dealing with my never-ending high sex drive without getting into too much trouble.

[Cyrena]

The teenaged analogy seems a very good one. Teenagers, naturally, are not fully developed, have not had an adult relationship, and have a lot to learn about themselves, about their emotional and sexual capacity, and how to become fully integrated, compassionate, mature adults. All of this takes time, experience, and a willingness to learn and grow. So, it goes without saying that what "worked" as a teen would not be acceptable to most adults. (Just as it would be pretty sad if most teens continued to eat only the things they were willing to try right through adulthood--what a wealth of tastes and experiences they would be foregoing.)

You say your "marriage and family is a fulfilling situation, just not sexually." How would you know if it's fulfilling or not, if you've never had a genuine mature relationship combining sexuality and emotional intimacy?

[TeaEarlGreyHot]

Have you ever actually done what Cinco is describing?

Yes, and it was completely unnoticed. Weeks and months later, I had to point out that not only had I "withdrawn" (and why), but then I had to put up with all the crap associated with my choice. She had not noticed, and then got angry because of the choice I made.

So, a borderline sociopathic personality? What is it exactly that attracts you to your wife? Why do you wish to stay married to her? Why do you? I'm still not clear.

Actually, it has the appearance of some aspects of an antisocial personlity disorder. I am not a clinician. But certainly some of the following do ring true for me after 24 years of observation. There are the more "benign" related traits (Cleckley and Hare), some of which I think I've described in one form or another. The key is there is always a component of plausible deniability to this:

1) Contemptuous of those who seek to understand them
2) Does not perceive that anything is wrong with them
3) Authoritarian
4) Secretive
5) Paranoid
6) Only rarely in difficulty with the law, but seeks out situations where their tyrannical behavior will be tolerated, condoned, or admired
7) Conventional appearance
8) Goal of enslavement of their victim(s)
9) Exercises despotic control over every aspect of the victim's life
10) Has an emotional need to justify their crimes and therefore needs their victim's affirmation (respect, gratitude and love)
11) Ultimate goal is the creation of a willing victim
12) Incapable of real human attachment to another
13) Unable to feel remorse or guilt
14) Extreme narcissism and grandiose
15) May state readily that their goal is to rule the world

What I can say that it is more a persistence of memory of what I once felt and the unrealistic hope that it might be so again (though that hope has been slipping away with the passage of time). What I weigh in this is the knowledge of what I went through before and whether I want to go through another version of that again OR I live as a testament to endurance until one of us dies.

At some levels, we do fine. Yet, this is not what I envisioned nor is it the relationship I described when we first met. I was not looking for a housemate, though that is largely what this has devolved to.

It's not that I am uncaring or unloving AND, as I've said before, I've come to accept that I probably made a very bad choice 24 years ago. Given my own interpretation of my own pathology, I probably would have been "better off" not involving myself with anyone else. Other than my son, I would not have shared my life with anyone else and the choice of what I kept and let go of in my life would have been my own.

I cannot tell you what conditions will walk me away from this marriage and that is what I am weighing now.

Few of us go into marriage with the intention of divorcing, and in that sense it is a "failure." Besides, marriage is the most important relationship we make out of choice. My view is that it represents a "failure" to maintain and sustain a promise made.

The Captain

[ssmguy]

The teenaged analogy seems a very good one. Teenagers, naturally, are not fully developed, have not had an adult relationship, and have a lot to learn about themselves, about their emotional and sexual capacity, and how to become fully integrated, compassionate, mature adults. All of this takes time, experience, and a willingness to learn and grow. So, it goes without saying that what "worked" as a teen would not be acceptable to most adults. (Just as it would be pretty sad if most teens continued to eat only the things they were willing to try right through adulthood--what a wealth of tastes and experiences they would be foregoing.)

You say your "marriage and family is a fulfilling situation, just not sexually." How would you know if it's fulfilling or not, if you've never had a genuine mature relationship combining sexuality and emotional intimacy?

Exactly. I probably don't know. But that doesn't mean my current "happiness" isn't real. It's kind of like saying, how can you know you're truly happy if you've never actually experienced being a billionaire? You say you're truly happy not being a billionaire, but how could you know? Well, it's all relative, perhaps, but that doesn't mean I don't know what I'm talking about.

As for the teenage analogy, and it not being acceptable to adults, my point is my sexual experience and interests might also be more at the teenage stage. Sure, I'm interested in a good satisfying relationship. But at this stage, with virtually no experience with female sexual response, I'm also driven by sexual curiosity and sense of fun and adventure about sex. I'd hugely enjoy going out with some nice women who wanted to do nothing more than necking and petting in the back of the car in the park, giving each other manual orgasms, etc. I've never done that.

So, sure, a genuine mature relationship sounds great -- but not right now. First I'd like to just find out what it's like to have sex with a woman who likes sex a lot, even if she doesn't give a hoot about me, and just wants sex for the sake of sex, and would like me to give her orgasms, and see what that's like. This is all totally new to me.

Not exactly compatible with being in a long-term marriage, is it? Yeah, I know.

[lms Sunshine]

When you were a teenager, you likely had raging hormones and sexual interests, but you had long periods of time without a sexual partner, and no sex with any of the family members you lived with (hopefully).

I'm in my late 30s and I have long periods of time without a sexual partner now ... the difference is - it's now my choice - it's not something that's imposed on me be because of the choices a partner makes.

My marriage and family is a fulfilling situation, just not sexually.

Yep - I told myself that for years too.

You know the amazing thing though – post marriage, I actually still have all those things I liked about my marriage (with the exception perhaps of half my assets). I still have a great friendship with my xhusband (he vacationed here with me last month for a couple of weeks – we still adore each other, in a gorgeous platonic way that wasn’t possible when we were married and sticking to our own sides of the bed), a wonderful relationship with my in-laws and extended family (they now grudgingly respect the decisions I took to make my life better and more fulfilled – and as my mother-in-law said to me at Christmas “you are certainly showing us that the best revenge for the nah-sayers is a successful life well lived” – nicest compliment she could have given me). With a handful of exceptions we still both have all our old friendships … we didn’t have to split up our friends in a custody battle!

I have a closer relationship with the kids now, because I invested in that after their father and I separated.

Your view might make good sense for you, and would make your decision easy in my case.

No Sir. Such a decision is never easy and shouldn’t be taken lightly. The decision to leave my marriage and the couple of years after it were the hardest and most painful of my life. I wouldn’t wish it on my worst enemy.

Having said that, 4 years down the track and I contemplate what my life would look like now had I not left the marriage. I’d still be in my hometown, I now live abroad. I’d still be wondering why my husband didn’t want to have an intimate relationship with me, I don’t have to wonder about that anymore. I’d still be worried about what people would think of me if they knew what was going on in my head. I now understand it’s none of my business what other people think of me. In short, I’d still be stuck in a life not-quite-right.

I’m never going to settle for not-quite-right again. We don’t have to. That’s the miracle of accepting we have choices – the choice to get it right or keep doing what we’ve been doing.

When you keep doing what you’ve always done – you keep getting what you’ve always got.

[lms Sunshine]

Few of us go into marriage with the intention of divorcing, and in that sense it is a "failure." Besides, marriage is the most important relationship we make out of choice. My view is that it represents a "failure" to maintain and sustain a promise made.

Promise, schmomise.

We make promises based on a particular set of circumstances.

In the past I've worked with women in violent marriages. They so often say "I can't leave him because I love him – and I’m married to him – and I promised to stay with him through the good times and the bad” Should they keep that promise?

Or … I’ve got an Uncle who was a priest. Amazing man. He had a lifelong passion to contribute to development work in the third world and joined the priesthood because he claimed to have a “vocation” but also because I think he thought it would be a good way to work with vulnerable people in developing countries. His Order had a policy shift and they pulled out of all their Missions. His passion for his work was so great, at significant personal cost and public embarrassment he left the priesthood. He now runs an orphanage of 5000 children in India. He broke his promise to God and the Church institution … but I don’t think he considers himself a failure. I consider him a brave hero with immense personal integrity.

Is it really right to keep a promise for the sake of the promise? I don’t know about that.

[ssmguy]

I’m never going to settle for not-quite-right again. We don’t have to. That’s the miracle of accepting we have choices – the choice to get it right or keep doing what we’ve been doing.

Yeah, well, it might be different if we didn't have kids. I like living with them, period. End of sentence. It's that simple.

But I'm not also not going to go without sex.

Which is why my life is a bit complicated.

People on this forum have said my marriage is a sham. Like you say, I'm not really worried what OTHER people think my marriage is.

[ssmguy]

Read some interesting articles about women in menopause, some of which talked about how women of that age have been affected by Viagra. The point was that many of them were upset about having to start having "a lot" of sex again when their husbands could get good erections again, or having sex at all when there was previously none. As if having sex with any reasonable frequency was unreasonable! Some quotes:

Viagra is giving older men a new lease on sex - but many wives are upset about it.

Wow, that confirms my perception of older women. Seems to match my wife perfectly.

Why should Viagra concern women? When women go through menopause, the hormonal changes they experience often lead to a drop in libido and less interest in sex. It's nature taking its course - just another phase in the female life cycle. It's the way we're built and programmed, biologically speaking.

Oh, so it's actually NORMAL and EXPECTED that I should conform to lower sexual frequency as we get older. Any wonder then that horny old men want younger women? This is so frustrating to read.

Viagra is marketed to aging men whose female counterparts are going through their own sexual crisis - menopause. These women want less sex but their partners now want more.

Ah, so it's implied that basically, as a rule, women want less sex as they go through menopause. Fits the statistics I've seen elsewhere.

Well, this certainly clears it up a bit for me. My problem is basically that I'm a man who's permanently and naturally on Viagra. And so I have all the problems that many couples have when the husbands starts taking Viagra. Probably an unfortunate result of being in excellent health, getting exercise, eating well, being of ideal weight (BMI 21). I'm in my late 50's and I still get unwanted erections at work, or other places, just thinking about sex or seeing someone attractive, pretty much like when I was a teenager.

Like my wife said out of exasperation about 20 years ago, "I hate the way you're always turned on and ready for sex." So that's really the main feeling of "rejection" I have -- there's just no "appropriate" place, situation, or person who appreciates me sexually. But I'm used to it.

And so I've developed a deep fascination with women who really enjoy sex, like they're almost too good to be true.

[ssmguy]

I also never quite understood how couples manage Viagra. With many (most?) women being moody and fickle about wanting sex, and since it takes an hour or two for Viagra to take effect, how could a man figure out when/if he should take a pill?

Even Jay Leno joked about this. "How would a man know when to take Viagra? Only the woman knows if there's going to be any sex!" Yeah, what's factually wrong about that joke anyway? Sounded like a good question to me!

[TeaEarlGreyHot]

Promise, schmomise.

Is it really right to keep a promise for the sake of the promise? I don’t know about that.

And therein lies your problem.

You think your ex-husband did not know that about you? You think others don't?

And let's take your first example and where you go with that.
The justification for not making or valuing promises is because you've worked with women in violent relationships? What you failed to say is that on the other side of things is probably another (broken) promise not to be violent again, or abusive , or whatever.

So, is it okay, for example, to commit an attempted rape or commit rape? There is an attempt to dance around these words, but that is really what is going on (from a legal standpoint). And so, what I've accepted, not as an explicit promise I've made, but an implicit acceptance of the situation I deal with, is the request and the demand not to commit any sexual act upon her body. Are you saying, as a male in this situation, I should not respect that request and demand?

On your second example, it is clear (to me) that your uncle is BEING in integrity (whole and complete) with whom he says he is in the world. A path to that way of being was through priesthood AND as is demonstrated by what you describe as his current situation, there was another path to accomplish the same thing.

And your words give the appearance that promises have little, if any, value to you. They are situational. Yet, who you are is your word, who you say yourself to be.

And you don't wish to be bound by your own words. Fine. That is a choice you are free to make.

It is not about "doing," whether it is the same thing over and over again, or not. It is about being and the way that you BE.

I have chosen a way to be consistent with the promises I've made. I have found these circumstances lacking a degree of completeness which I've explicitly expressed. that explicit expression has fallen upon deaf ears and it does not register. So, I feel (and it just a feeling) that I've ended up in some sort of blind alley with no real solution that is intuitively obvious. However, I can also hope that there is some outcome that might be worth it.

Sometimes that just takes time.