Are regrets when you end a separation normal?

[Onthemountaintop]

OK, been thinking,
it's her intelligence specifically that upsets you? Right? Is there anything, I mean anything that you can bond on???

It's been 11 years and I was ready to D in the first month. A lot of people are missing the fact that I NEVER had feelings of love and respect develop ever. I'v tried inviting her to things I love, tried things I thought people of her culture might. There are a few things she did like (camping, for example). I believe that if I can get MY heart into the right place, we would be able to be much happier when we find those bonding moments.

Religion, height, all those things are 'issues', but none of them alone make the gap between us. It is the combo of it all.

With your husbands or wives, you might have any of these:
- initial love/infatuation (almost everyone had this on the boards to look back on)
- attraction
- respect for their skills / intellegence
- respect for their faith / beliefs
- shared history
- family connections / money
- etc.

I don't have much to go on. So what am I supposed to do?
- leave her
- change her
- change my expectations of her
- change me hoping to change her
- accept the situation and through any hopes of a deep relationship away

I am trying to combine the last 4, but I put the option of leaving on the table because she kept asking, and I don't mean I reacted to her threat.

I married her WITHOUT KNOWING HER. Doesn't that ring the bell - I had THREE SHORT LETTERS FROM HER - that's all! I didn't have any connection.

My wedding day, my W told my FIL she didn't want any dinner, party, nothing. I waited for an hour wondering what was going on, only to find out she was sitting in her wedding dress on the bed! What a bad way to start a relationship that didn't exist.

So why did I marry her? I was dumb...! If I had known her even a little bit, gone out on 4+ chaperoned dates, I'm sure we wouldn't have married. But we did. So I've been trying, even if poorly.

I don't want to throw it away. But I can't love someone that I wouldn't mind as a coworker. I can respect her. I want to be more respectful to her, but she HAS NEVER been able to tell me what she means by that. I've asked her so many times in different ways. She gave me a couple examples, but they weren't respect issues, they were pure miscommunication. My first lang is Eng. Hers is not. I expect miscom to happen, but that we'd laugh it off. She can't, yet. I know this is self-esteem related. I know it. But she's ALWAYS been this way.

So I'm left with - I'll change, she can change if she wants to, and I hope I'll see something in her our fights have been blinding me from.

[Onthemountaintop]

OTM,
I've seen you post around "town" but I'm just catching up on your sitch. I'm going to swing some big Ol 2X4 's for what its worth. Its out of love.. I swear...

Please accept too that my response is not an angry how could you, but rather a response because I don't think I've been clear enough for others to understand. Maybe it is also the fact that I'm like the wolf among the sheep. I say I want my M to work, but I am the one driving myself to a possible D.

Do you want it to - or are you just looking for justification as to why you are RIGHT?

If I knew I wanted to make it work with my W, I would be able to. That IS why I'm here - trying to find out why I can't stop thinking about getting out of my M. to find out new ways to see the same R issue.

RE ADHD - medicated usually, but I got through Univ without, I'm trying not to rely on it. Why did I bother with the diagnosis? Because my R was such cr** that I figured it must be me. How does that make me on a high horse. Each day I take a pill, do you think I don't wonder if it really is a patch to a M that wasn't meant to be? I KNOW that I can be successful, with or without. I also know that those who feel successful have lives where they aren't swimming upstream on every route.

If I wanted to be with her, I believe she'd love me more because I would find it much easier to do the extra touch, listen a little longer, be a little less sensitive, change that much more.

She sounds healthy and fine to me – does she have warts or something??? You have 5 kids – she was attractive at some point.

I got one picture of her, with her veil. It was black and white and an old picture, too. I was told by many others that by their culture it wouldn't be OK to meet her and go out (this is allowed by my religion, but I didn't realize that so I accepted). I saw her once in person, but she didn't look at me, so all I could see was one cheek.

What is attractive? It doesn't matter, because it can't change much and I am not not so picky that I want a model from the front cover. What isn't attractive - much easier for me to answer.
- I think that when she decided that her ear surgery wasn't that important, and that becoming nearly deaf in one ear was acceptable is really ugly. I tried to encourage her, get angry with her, deal with her fears, it didn't matter. Only after I said D, did she take note and call her doctor back.
- Not eating b'fast and becoming boney, weak, and constantly sick is ugly
- Not brushing her hair and teeth, that's ugly.
- A wart...she had one for a while because she wouldn't go to the doctor
- Preg. vitamins during our last few kids...wouldn't take it
- there's more...

HOW DO YOU RESPECT SOMEONE WHO CAN'T RESPECT HERSELF OR HER BODY?

So should I now expect a response that it is my fault she feels this way. I'd accept it gladly if she hasn't been this way since we first met & married. Do I 'deserve better'. Maybe not. Can I accept living with someone who phyiscially is guaranteed to break down because she CHOOSES to be weak. Others could. I can't.

You think she is dumber than you…

OK, I'm guilty here. But in what relationship are the spouses perfectly matched? I got through Univ, with a job, a wife and a baby, and undiagnosed ADHD. I must be doing at least OK in that dept.

Am I saying she's stupid? No. I feel it at times, I KNOW that is wrong. I know that intellegence is of many kids, and I believe that true, too. Was she always this way. No. She was worse. Meeting me wasn't the key, but coming to a country that challenged her assumptions, having kids questioning her, and me all helped her grow. It helped me grow, too. Her quick growth points out that she could be and do so much more IF SHE WANTED TO. The other side is her language. Her Engl. isn't that good, so while she might be able to better understand me and I understand her, she doesn't. To me, stupid is being able to, but choosing not to try. I don't respect that.

Instead of kids, I tried very hard to encourage her to learn. She didn't even want English classes when she first came - I had to (almost) force her.

She can’t be anything else when you have demanded that she be everything to you.

I don't want her to be everything. I'd love some independence, and for her to have some too. She DOESN'T WANT IT. Unless I said I wouldn't, she doesn't even try so many things.

Happiness comes from within ourselves

Starting to get this point. How can I get her to see that without actually walking away? I know that if I left, she'd pick up the peices and start trying to find happiness eventally. But with 5 kids, she wouldn't have time to or afford to. Would she be relieved? Of course. One less person to worry about. One less meal. Many less fights. If that was my goal, then I'd be out. I want us ALL to be happier - me, the kids, and her. Together, if possible.

Maybe I am self-centered. I don't think I am.

Why did I marry Mrs. OTM?
- I was looking for a good, religious woman who seemed strong willed and intellegent. I know now there is no way to know this without KNOWING her, but that isn't what I thought then. She wasn't religious. She can be pushy, not strong willed. She is a good person - this is why I've been trying for 11 years. BTW - she accepted me because she thought I was her ticket out of her country.

What did we have in common when we met?
Nothing other than religion.

What about her attracted me back then?
Nothing. Didn't really see her.

What have I done to show Mrs. OTM that I value her as a wife and the mother of my
kids?
I tell the kids to respect her in front of her and at other times, I remind her that she works too hard and deserves a break. Not much else because I want her as a person, not a mother.

What did I do to contribute to the breakdown of our marriage?
Tons. ADHD. Anger. Holding grudges. Key thing - M was broken from DAY ONE, but I couldn't leave her 'embarrased' and divorced a few days after we began. My friends were in Canada. They wouldn't have known. Her family and more was all around her and some thought I just married for quick sex and would leave her. I couldn't just ditch her without giving it a proper chance. Should I have planned kid #1. Ya. How many families get preg in the first month, I thought....

What do I think I do the create the “as they are” problem – where do I see opportunities to improve. (Vs wanting Mrs. OTM to tell you what she means by this, you see what YOU think this means and fix THAT)
- I now have a long list and I'm trying to do some of it. But...if I can't carry on a conv. without getting frustrated and seeing the many gaps, it is really hard to make them happen.

I KNOW YOU ARE ALL TRYING TO HELP. I'M VENTING BACK A BIT OF STEAM, so forgive me if I seem mean or heartless.

I stayed for 11 years without ONE month that I felt love, deep companionship, or many other things you've all had at one time to another. I'm not feeling that it is her fault. But IM JUST NOT ATTRACTED TO HER MIND, BODY, SOUL, OR SKILLS.

When you've gone to date your H or W years ago, didn't you try to court them, showing your best side, trying to be beautiful/handsome?

I can do that for my W now, 11 years late, but why shouldn't I ask that of her? Or better, how can I not ask it of her if I'm the one not attracted?

[Onthemountaintop]

Go ask her today- ask her to gently tell her why she finds you disrespectful.

I'll try that.

[Onthemountaintop]

I quite simply do not understand how you can be married to a person AND have five children over 10 years

- phys problems using condoms, she wouldn't use the pill/IUD, and yet, with barely any sex, babies. EXTREME fertility, perfect baby making conditions.

I hope the other posts clarifies things.

I didn't see her really, I didn't ever talk to her, she was much more religious on paper, I don't want a servant - that is one of my biggest frustrations as a wife is that she treats herself like a servant for the kids and me, I wouldn't be here if i wasn't screwed up in some way, I am sorry about my bad explanations, good point about the kids, I've been working out and trying to make myself better for a while + still working on it, thanks for the quote...

Maybe it is all me that is the problem, I sure hope not!

[june72]

So let me get this clear in my mind- so I understand correctly...


If she is willing to makes changes in herself than you are willing to stay married? Even love her?


Please believe me my tone is one of kindness and respect for you not trying to take any jabs at you.

You insight to my question will help me greatly.

And forgive me- maybe you have made it very clear in the above posts, I just do not have to time at this moment to read them carefully. But I really wanted to get your answer (with lots of reflection) on this.

[june72]

Go ask her today- ask her to gently tell her why she finds you disrespectful.

I'll try that.

OK, good- please listen, do not defend or justify or bring up her failings.

Please hear what she has to say and post it as accurately as you can here...

I would love to hear would her words are without input or comment on her response... make sense

Again- it would give us all some very good insight

thx

[june72]

Sorry, OTMT, sorry that you are feeling defensive here.


You stated you are religious- have you spoken to a clergyman or someone of high stating in your mosque concerning your issues for any insight?


Just trying to think here....

[flowmom]

From your recent posts, I get a clearer picture of the problems. Thank you for elaborating. From what I know now, I am assuming that a large part of the problem is a culture clash. My mother was Canadian from waaaay back and she married my father, a recently immigrated man from Eastern Europe. They had a lot of problems and I believe that it many of them were based different cultural assumptions and miscommunications based on that. You have some serious concerns about your wife's life and her role as your wife. It sounds like she and you have totally different assumptions about some things, and that you have not been able to communicate with her in a way that she can hear you, except coercively. I'm not convinced that Retrouvaille would be helpful in your case, because it's based on your cultural assumptions, not hers. I think you'd be better off seeking out counselling that is specifically oriented towards bridging the cultural gap. Your W is living in your culture and on your terms and that puts her at a huge disadvantage. I think that you and she need to communicate with the support of a counselor who has a very good understanding of both cultures and who can bridge those gaps.

IMO, intercultural marriages have unique challenges with respect to communication. I feel for you and I hope that you can get something from what we offer here.

[Onthemountaintop]

Go ask her today- ask her to gently tell her why she finds you disrespectful.

I'll try that.

I asked her. She said in order:
- She was now worse than me, that she disrespects but I don't anymore
- I treat her like a child
- She feels I tell her what to do too much
- Give her dirty looks when I'm upset in the store
- I am doing this much less since IC (Feb/09)

[Onthemountaintop]

Sorry, OTMT, sorry that you are feeling defensive here.

Could I have avoided it? - I'm the 'wolf'

I've had a lot of online checks, reading of Qur'an verses about D and trying to avoid it/prevent it, etc. No minister of sorts, though.

She wanted to go, but to have them "judge" us. I said no way. Also, they aren't counsellors, just ministers (imam). Our belief from the Prophet was that you go to the experts for areas that aren't religion. So M problems to M counsellors, I think.