Bill, The reason your wife is going back and forth and such is that she is probably getting pressure from the OM. You are lying to yourself if you think there isn't something still going on.
She wants her cake and eat it too. She is scared to lose you because she doesn't feel he is a sure thing.
The only reason she would be feeling so up and down about her decision isn't limbo. It IS because of the OM.. BANK ON IT.GUARANTEED...
When a woman acts like this it is because of another man... You are deceiving yourself if you believe anything different than that.
Just because someone posts on your thread and says that your wife is "doing" some OM, doesn't make it so.
Moreover, just because some posters are one-trick ponies and can only tout one line, over and over again, through thread after thread, doesn't mean that the issue of OM or no OM is even the relevant issue in your situation at the moment.
Gucci says the same thing everywhere he goes. He is almost universally loved because he says what all of us WANT to say about affairs and those who conduct them.
The fact that he's been saying it through hundreds of posts does not make him an expert, so be sure to take his advice just like you would take anyone else's advice - with a grain of salt.
Personally I'm appalled that here at newcomers is where gucci and his ilk hone in on people who are hurting and confused, and they do their level best to convince those wounded people to take steps and actions that are all but sure to do three things
1) convince your spouse that you really are the [censored] they thought you were
2) drive the connection between the two of them even closer,
3) make certain that you put the final nail in the coffin of what remains of hope for your marriage.
There are a lot of affairs on this board. And there are many, many times where newcomers THINK there is not, but there actually is. That still doesn't mean that some non-thinking, cookie cutter approach works on situations that are as unique and complicated as the individuals in them.
And that's MY personal opinion.
Blessings,
Bill
Last edited by Bworl; 02/07/1007:43 PM.
"Don't tell me the sky is the limit when there are footprints on the moon."
Just because someone posts on your thread and says that your wife is "doing" some OM, doesn't make it so.
Moreover, just because some posters are one-trick ponies and can only tout one line, over and over again, through thread after thread, doesn't mean that the issue of OM or no OM is even the relevant issue in your situation at the moment.
Hi Bill,
Gucci can defend himself, but I think your post was pretty harsh and unfair. The fact is that a LOT of posters are I guess what you would call "one-trick ponies," in that each brings their own particular area of expertise or experience to play, and tries to offer maybe something different from what everyone else is. Some recommend Retrouvaille in nearly every post, because it's helped them so much, and they want to see others benefit from it. Others post their long lists of do's and don'ts. Some see MLC behind every bush, as if that somehow forgives the behavior, just by naming it.
Still others, like myself, try to warn people I perceive as being naive about "There is no one else; I asked her, and she told me there wasn't," because we hate to see people blindsided later on, and completely devastated, and we also know what kind of emotional, financial, and even medical damage can be done for every month that an affair continues, unencumbered.
John the Baptist was a "one-trick pony." It was a "trick" that needed to be heard, though.
Peace,
Puppy
P.S. This sums up how I feel about affairs, and why I've long said that "it may not be the biggest problem in your marriage, but it's certainly the most immediate obstacle:
Holes in the Roof
Penny R. Tupy June 2004
I love houses. Always have. A favorite weekend recreation is to tour the semi annual parade of homes or to check out the newest open models in the upscale developments around the area. During my thirties I was an avid member of the National Trust for Historic Preservation; my fun reading was made up of publications such as "Early American Life" and "Preservation." I've lived in an old house, built at the turn of the last century, and in an historic house of a modern sort – built in the `40's with design elements which were decades ahead of their time. For several years I had a recreational decorating and design business. I helped restore a Victorian, once facing condemnation, to near museum quality standards. I've painted concrete floors to look like marble, designed my kitchen from the walls out, and made strategic suggestions for the structural elements of our current state of remodel. I love houses. And in fact, when I travel to other parts of the country I am far more likely to photograph the residential architecture than I am to record the family on vacation. (Much to the chagrin of my children in later years..)
So, what does this have to do with marriage? Well, I live in the upper Midwest where Mother Nature mesmerizes us with thunderstorms, floods, and tornadoes this time of year. Not long ago I watched a newscast about a house that was damaged when a tree came through the roof of a house in one of our many storms. (The man sleeping just under the spot where the tree entered the house was unharmed but definitely shaken!) It got me thinking about the correlation between marriage and houses.
A marriage is much like a house. When it's new, everything is well kept. It's clean. The roof is good, the plumbing works well, the floors are level and unscathed. But inevitably, over time, things begin to break down. If one owns an older or historic home there are always things which clamor for attention – similar to a marriage that's been neglected or damaged by thoughtless choices, independent living and outright harmful actions. A marriage in trouble is much like a house needing significant repair.
It could be that the plumbing needs to updated, the wiring changed from old glass fuses to code compliant breakers, the walls may be cracked and the floors might need to be shorn up to make them level again. A marriage may have issues and conflicts surrounding in-laws, money, sex, child rearing, hobbies, or even pets. Like a house that needs significant work, those things need to be addressed in small steps, with thoughtful planning and oodles of frustrating starts and stops.
But what happens when a storm sends a tree crashing through the roof? No matter what the state of the home prior to that event, all work needs to stop and energies must be redirected toward emergency repair. The tree needs to be carefully removed, the roof repaired and any other structural damage investigated and repaired before work can resume on the pre-existing conditions.
This is exactly the same dynamic that occurs in marriage when there is infidelity. The marriage may need serious repair work in and of itself. But once an affair sends a tree crashing through the sheltering structure of the relationship all efforts directed at the underlying problems take a back seat to the emergency measures brought about by the affair itself. There's no point in attempting to fix the cracked walls and outdated electricity in the marriage when there is a tree protruding into the bedroom and the inner structure is exposed to the elements.
The affair partner must be completely and permanently removed from the relationship in the same way the tree must be removed from the roof. It's a horribly difficult and painful process. Often the affair partner has been a long time friend of one or both spouses. The loss of the friendship and the betrayal that is felt is heart wrenching, no matter what leg of the triangle one is on. But a friendship that has intruded into the intimate structure of a marriage can no longer be considered a friendship. Boundaries have been breached, and there is no way to return to a state of innocence. None of the needed repair work to the marriage can begin until this step is complete. Intermittently ending and resuming contact with an affair partner creates the same kind of damage as picking the tree up off the roof and dropping it back on again – it creates larger holes and more damage.
Once the affair partner is no longer in the picture, the hard work of repair can begin. First and foremost the gaping holes left by the affair must be mended. Depending on the length of the affair and how far into the emotional bonding of the marriage the affair partner was allowed to intrude, repair work could be replacement of the entire roof or simply a minimal patch job. The longer the affair, with the marriage being exposed to the damage of wind and rain, the more repair will be needed. The holes left by infidelity are things such as damaged trust, resentment, the inevitable withdrawal felt by the straying spouse when the affair ends, and stress on the underlying structure of the marriage.
Marriages rarely end in divorce due to the affair itself. But failure to repair the damage from the affair will almost without fail lead to complete destruction of the marriage. Marriages end because there the gaping holes remaining which continue to expose the relationship to more harm. Some couples can do the repair work themselves. These are the calmly methodical sorts who can read about the necessary measures and implement them in without becoming bogged down in the emotional tug of war recovery always entails. For most couples, as with homeowners, hiring a professional is indispensable in making sure the repairs are done well and in a timely manner.
As the holes are patched, the shingles replaced, and the structure found to be intact attention can once again be turned to the problems which existed before the tree made its untimely entrance into the lives of the homeowners. Those issues and conflicts may have become larger or more serious because of the damaged caused either directly or indirectly by the crisis of the storm – that's the nature of destructive events; they have far reaching consequences. Time, patience, persistence, and good professional help can make all the difference in repairing a storm damaged home or healing a marriage torn apart by an affair.
The reason that I say that I believe the OM thing is winding down is because I still have access to some of their communication. I'm not proud of myself about that, I think it's wrong, but there it is. He believes that she's written him off.
Funny - this past Monday, we had a therapy appt at 1:30, and I knew this guy was in town that day wanted to have lunch with her. So I asked her, why don't we have lunch before the appt, to see what she's say. She immediately agreed.
Anyway, this isn't definitive, and it's not the whole picture, and in the end W is unpredictable and I don't have a whole lot of trust about anything in this arena. But I don't think that changes what I need to do now. Gucci, I won't be surprised if I'm wrong. But hell, just more reason to proceed forward, enforce boundaries, establish the parameters of the S/D.
Bill's right, there have been some things I've said about this to W that have been damaging. I'm glad that I exposed it, but there have been times in discussion where I've made this a focus when maybe I shouldn't have.
Puppy, I liked the essay. God, there's a lot of repair that would be needed. Trust, resentment - all those elements. Well.
W actually said at one point that she's not up for doing all that work. Not being trusted, it would never be the same, etc.
I know for my part - I'd be willing to do it. But that's not where we are right now.
Just because someone posts on your thread and says that your wife is "doing" some OM, doesn't make it so.
Moreover, just because some posters are one-trick ponies and can only tout one line, over and over again, through thread after thread, doesn't mean that the issue of OM or no OM is even the relevant issue in your situation at the moment.
Gucci says the same thing everywhere he goes. He is almost universally loved because he says what all of us WANT to say about affairs and those who conduct them.
The fact that he's been saying it through hundreds of posts does not make him an expert, so be sure to take his advice just like you would take anyone else's advice - with a grain of salt.
Personally I'm appalled that here at newcomers is where gucci and his ilk hone in on people who are hurting and confused, and they do their level best to convince those wounded people to take steps and actions that are all but sure to do three things
1) convince your spouse that you really are the [censored] they thought you were
2) drive the connection between the two of them even closer,
3) make certain that you put the final nail in the coffin of what remains of hope for your marriage.
There are a lot of affairs on this board. And there are many, many times where newcomers THINK there is not, but there actually is. That still doesn't mean that some non-thinking, cookie cutter approach works on situations that are as unique and complicated as the individuals in them.
And that's MY personal opinion.
Blessings,
Bill
I'd say I'm offended but I can't say that I am. You're entitled to your opinion just as I am along with the rest of "Gucci's ilk" LOL!
We offer advice, no one is forced to do anything.
However the bulk of these new users that come to these forums will lanquish and spend months and/or years doing what you propose and continue to complain and whine for that same period of time about how things aren't changing and how the WAS is still the WAS and still seeing the other person.
And hey Bill, if you want to be here and offer that shoulder for them to cry on, that is your choice. I would rather offer advice that works instead of offering a "there, there, let it all out, things will get better one of the days/weeks/months/years, she has to change her feelings eventually"
Bill you sound a bit jaded in your response and I could be wrong, but you sound angry, maybe you yourself spent alot of time in limbo in your own situation trying everything and nothing worked or maybe you busted your divorce by following your methods, I don't know. But you do sound a bit angry.
If someone doesn't want my advice, they have to just ask and I will respect that decision.
Well guys, I welcome and appreciate input from all of you.
Looked at the settlement stuff tonight. Yeah, don't think I want the house. Might be able to make it work, but it would be difficult. W is thinking about buying me out again. She changes every day.
What have you guys done with scheduling the kids? I work full-time, so W is pretty much going to be the one taking them to school and picking them up. We've talked a bit about a situation where I pick them up after work, the drop them off again with W in the morning. That way we both get to seem them regularly.
W goes back and forth on what she will and won't do. We've talked about the 50/50 custody, then she'll get an attitude about how I'd make that work without putting them in daycare - which leads to a snotty statement that "you'd rather put them in daycare than have me take care of them." Which is never what I've said - I just don't have good answers.
She can work herself up pretty good about this.
Probably more of a 60/40 arrangement - which goes into the settlement calculation.
Sheesh, this is a pain in the neck. It's hard to contend with how different life is going to be - both with regard to the boys and with finances.
For some reason it's tough today. Yeah, went out with friends Fri and Sat, yesterday I largely spend alone; read in a coffee shop, stuff like that.
Haven't seen my boys since Fri so I'm taking them tonight.
W and I both seem to be taking the boundries seriously now. Talked to her today for 1st time since Fri, and the conversations are all short and businesslike. I know that's good.
Quote:
First, I have some indication that the OM thing is pretty much at it's end, FWIW.
Losing confidence in this statement. Don't think it's raging, but don't think it's done.
We've agreed to talk tomorrow night about details - support, schedule, etc.
Let's face it - I miss her, I miss being a family, I don't want the life that coming. But this is the road right now.
We have a therapy appointment this Thursday.
I don't know what else to say right now. I'm sad. Not dispairing, just sad.
So, I'll pick up some dinner, get my kids, and that will be that.
Still have a future to invest in, even if it's not the planned one. I guess all those emotional objections that come up (but I don't WANT to divide up finances! I don't WANT to spend less time with the boys! I don't WANT to give up my home) are giving way to, this is how it is, what to do next? Acceptance. Hopefully I'm in a healthier place now. I guess there's a part of me that on some level feels that giving up what "should" be is some sort of character flaw. Justifies carrying around the emotional weight, sort of like "can't you see that this is more important than anything else..." When in fact it seems like the character is the resilience, the ability to cope and to adjust.
Hi Bill, So true, giving up the planned future is hard. For so long I haven't wanted to deal with the business/legal stuff, now slowly I am. Not easily but as you said, this is how it is. This is reality now, certainly not the planned future for me, you or anyone else on here I'm pretty sure. Just wanted to let you know I'm following along, even if I don't always comment b/c I don't think I can offer anything helpful. Except my support, you really described how I feel here. Hoping you are doing OK. (((((Bill))))
Last edited by LookingFrAnswers; 02/09/1001:35 AM. Reason: changed word
Thanks guys - I appreciate the support. I know what you mean in terms of not always knowing what to say, but the "I hear you" posts are heartening.
Yeah, last night things were still businesslike. She had taken the boys to a therapy session, so we talked about that a little bit.
This morning when I dropped the boys off, she sat down on the stairs and talked a little bit about stuff going on with her, asked what I had planned for the day, etc. I honestly had a feeling like "I need to go..." Kind of seems like I am feeling more seperate. I kind of expected that after a few days, though, she'd start to want to talk more. Well, it was just a couple of minutes.
Anyway, I told her I'd take the boys as often as possible on weeknights. That's what I've got in mind.
But tonight - we talk about settlement stuff after the boys go to bed. I've observed that the predominant negative feelings she has about me recently have to do about these settlement discusions. We've typically been way off of each other. So I don't have a good feeling about this - it's going to be a tough night.
I know this argument that she throws out there, talking about support for the well being of the boys, and my immediate emotional response is that she's propagated the single most destructive event in their lives. I could go on and on, I've got a lot of anger and, for lack of a better word, venom that I could certainly spit out there. Well, so does she. But you know, when we have those coversations - well, fights - surprise, none of those points seem to get across.
So staying calm is the key. Kind of feel like a no-win situation, because no matter what we talk about how we're going to do this, having gone to the mediator, etc. etc. she's got this hair trigger to call up the lawyer and ask to get a court date.
