#2: WAH separated from us & I'm on the DBing path

[june72]

Flowmom,
I agree with everyone else. Esp with the evasive behavior.

Personally, I always thought if I were in this situation- I would hire a PI right away and find some answers.
Puppy talks about using a cheap cell phone in your spouses car as a GPS device. See if he is sleeping elsewhere. Also a cheap voice activated recorder taped to the inside of the car, keylogger on your computer...

Just thoughts..

I feel like you can not more forward with a plan of action till you "know the enemy". Meaning you really know what the heck is going on and then make an informed decision.

[flowmom]

Puppy talks about using a cheap cell phone in your spouses car as a GPS device. See if he is sleeping elsewhere. Also a cheap voice activated recorder taped to the inside of the car, keylogger on your computer...

I don't have access to his computer. I do have access to his car, but I don't know about hiding things in it...when I have access to it it would be hard to go in there privately, and of course what if he found a device? WWIII. If he is having an A, I'm guessing it's not a full-blown PA with an unattached person. For example, he wouldn't be inviting random facebook friends to go hiking on the day that he was supposedly at work, YKWIM? I think he's not there...yet. The time when I asked him if there was an OW after he moved out, and he answered "I wish" with such bitterness -- if that was acting he should get an Oscar. But maybe there was an A that's over. Anyway, who knows and gotta stop thinking about it.

[flowmom]

I am feeling the need to identify, name, and confess to my sins in the marriage. H had legitimate beefs with me, but I didn't really know how to address them. I tried, but I don't think that I understood in enough detail how my behaviours contributed to his unhappiness in the M.

I am reading a book that was recommended to me here: how to improve your marriage without talking about it. It says that the worst thing a woman can do to a man in a M is to evoke shame in him.

It's a reality check for me, and I'm feeling a lot of remorse about my part in ending our M.

Here's a checklist from the book...I've highlighted in red my "sins".

I exclude him from important decisions.
I don't always give him a chance to help.
I correct things he says.
I question his judgment.
I give him unsolicited advice.
I suggest how he should feel.
I ignore his advice.
I imply that he's inadequate in certain areas.
I'm often in a bad mood.
I think that he should at least match my use of time
and energy.
When he says I overreact, I think that he just doesn't
get it.
I ignore his needs that I think aren't important.
I focus on what I don't have instead of what I have.
I withhold praise hecause I think he doesn't really deserve
it or because I don't want him to get a big head.
I use a harsh tone to get through to him.
I pay more attention to other people's needs than to his.
I undermine his wishes.
I am condescending to him.
I lack respect for his work.
I show little interest in his interests.
I criticize his family.
I interpret the "real meaning" of what he says and does.
I compare him to other men or, worse, to my girlfriends.
I don't take his point of view seriously.
I believe he just can't see my unhappiness.
I think he fails to make me happy.
If I'm unhappy, I tell him that he must be unhappy, too.
I roll my eyes when I think of some of the things he says and does.
He says I give him "the look."
I am sometimes sarcastic to make my point or express
my dissatisfaction with his behavior.
I use ridicule to get through to him.
I usually have a "better way" of doing things.
Sometimes I think he's a jerk.
I have to tell him what he's doing wrong.
I tell him that he never helps me enough.
He can't handle my feelings.
I believe that if his childhood or previous relationships were different, we wouldn't have these problems.
I think that I understand relationships better than he does.
I think I do more than he does.
My friends treat me better than he does.
He disappoints me.

From the book:

When a woman criticizes a man, whether she does it deliberately or not, she makes it impossible for him to feel connected to her. Where there is a withdrawn or silent man, there is usually a critical woman.

I really want to send this the checklist to H, just to apologize and let him know that I understand why he's been so unhappy that he felt he had to leave. I wouldn't reassure him that I'll change or anything, just leave it at that.

[Kalni]

I was rereading the same book last night flo. Weird huh?

You are still at the phase that you are hard on yourself. I understand that. But listen, the same book has a list of things the H deos to his W to provoke fear for her. Did you read that? How does H fit with that? Nobody said LBSs were angels. I mean, talking about myself I did nearly everything on that list. But he also did everythig on the other list. HE LEFT ME ALONE.
Learn from your mistakes but dont take 100% of the weight of the relationship on your shoulders.

My H refused he had an OW. Nobody believed my suspicions either. You see, his profile is one of a very dedicated to his family, sincere, honest, GOOD person . I often felt guilty for suspecting him. Plus, his hours at work, I THOUGHT, didnt allow him time to cheat and have a relationship with someone.

The day he moved out, while both my kids were crying and begging him to stay, I was looking for tissues cause I was crying as well, so I put my hand in the inside pocket of his coat, to find tissues he always carries with him. I felt a little piece of paper. I let it drop from my hands but then picked it up again, and it was a little torn piece of a green post-it note folded into a tiny piece. I opened it and there it was "I love you very much". I went nuts. I asked him "is this the reason my son is now on the floor crying because you are mooving out?". His answer :you wish it was something like that- an OW- but it isnt. It's you and your behaviour...".

3 years later I found out the whole truth.
Be alert and keep your eyes open.
K

[rr22]

I agree with Kalni. You have to make sure you own whats yours and fix it without getting obsessive. You can only hope your H would ever go to the effort to read such books and lists of what H's do to provoke fear or whatever in W's or cause communication problems in relationships. Whatever you fix in yourself, plan to fix for yourself and for your next relationship. I made the decision to specifically discuss and own my part in our problems and my issues I needed to address to my H. I bought many books about it and started IC months before he even considered it for himself and I'm still going today. I have made great progress, but still he resists formally working on R or MC. He will only do separate IC and occasionally informally discuss issues when he feels he can handle it. When there are problems in relationships, it is never one person's fault. The leaver causes injury to the left by saying IT IS YOUR FAULT! to alleviate their guilt on the way out the door. Then the left is left with abandonment, blame injury, and, of course, awareness of some issues that she or he does need to fix. All while being thrown into a whirpool of life change. Be responsible, yet don't beat yourself up.

[Number 8]

Thank you, flowmom, Kalni, and rr22, for your comments and insights. I have a snow day today (a teacher's dream), so Boxer dog and I may brave the elements and hit the bookstore to pick up the book that was mentioned. I've done the blame thing, too, and it's very easy fall into that. rr22, you have to be one of the smartest people I've ever met. I hope to have a fraction of your clarity and wisdom one day!

[flowmom]

I was rereading the same book last night flo. Weird huh?

<nodding>

You are still at the phase that you are hard on yourself.

I don't think I'm being hard on myself when I admit my wrongs. There have been reasons and excuses for my wrongs, but that doesn't make it OK.

But listen, the same book has a list of things the H deos to his W to provoke fear for her. Did you read that? How does H fit with that?

He definitely contributed heavily to my feeling of being alone and shut out. I'm not trying to protect him from his own part in this, but his part isn't my department, my department is my own part.

Learn from your mistakes but dont take 100% of the weight of the relationship on your shoulders.

I don't and wouldn't. I'm just trying to take inventory right now. I think that communicating to H that I take full ownership for what I did wrong and apologizing for that could be part of moving on with my life. Really, the last times that we talked about our R were at Xmas, when I was in full-blown shock/panic/desperation mode and neither of us were in our right mind, and in MC, where things were left with me being cast in the light of someone who was trying hard and doing her best and H was the one who had to shift. Both of those are true, but there really wasn't enough ownership of my issues in MC, and a belief on anyone's part that I could change those things. My hurt and the stress that we've been under put me in a defensive mode. I think that owning my issues and truly acknowledging my part in H's pain would be a 180 for me, and I'm sorry that it's taken me the separation to truly look at this.

Plus, his hours at work, I THOUGHT, didnt allow him time to cheat and have a relationship with someone.

Yeah, I've thought that too. But H has had so much freedom in our M (I don't typically ask him about where he's been, who he's seen, etc.) that encounters would have been easy.

Be alert and keep your eyes open.

My eyes are open, but I have so little access to his life that realistically I would have to hire a PI, unless he starts shoving it in my face because he wants me to know.

I made the decision to specifically discuss and own my part in our problems and my issues I needed to address to my H. I bought many books about it and started IC months before he even considered it for himself and I'm still going today. I have made great progress, but still he resists formally working on R or MC. He will only do separate IC and occasionally informally discuss issues when he feels he can handle it.

Has it helped you to inventory and apologize to your H for your part in the M problems?

[rr22]

FM said: Has it helped you to inventory and apologize to your H for your part in the M problems?


It's helped me emotionally to feel I have sorted out and addressed my part in this, whether it's for closure or reconciliation. IC helped me see and disentangle my part from his part some but reading has also helped. If I'm ever in this or another relationship again, I want to be clear what my part in problems was. I felt blamed and like I had extra stuff projected on me and confused about what my part was. Now I have more specific ideas on what I need to fix and how. I asked for input from friends and family as well because I wanted an honest assessment and a clean slate to work from. Like the inventory you speak of. In my case, H directly and indirectly blamed me for his anxiety and depression, and that was very hurtful to me. So I really needed to figure out what my part was.

As to whether or not the apologies and working on me has helped R, H has expressed that at times recently he is starting to feel heard. At other times he expresses that there's "no way" I (and he also seemingly implies anyone?) could "understand." I had to read a lot of books about listening. (It does not work with my H to restate it back to him like some of those books say because no matter how you restate it back to him he says you changed it somehow and thus did not "understand." He often gets very upset during conversations about R still. Or gets that way quickly. I have to learn to shut my mouth totally and empathize without restating it back. I still don't have it completely right, but I'm better at it now.)

The way in which H dropped bomb and the timing contributed to a lot of chaos, injury, and defensiveniss such as what you refer to experiencing above. Still yet, I did immediately own (and immediately fix some of) a lot of my part at the time, but he did not. It took months to determine other parts that were my part because I had to read some things to even understand the way in which he attempted to explain them to me.

Also, the complaints were delivered with tears, yelling, and with lots of tiny specifics that didn't seem to add up until I calmed down over months, tried to engage with him more to decipher them. So I understand what you are talking about when you say the panic/shock/desperation period. Ours included insomnia and lots of negativity as well.

I think he may also be upset that I'm working on addressing the issues in a "too little, too late" sense. He has begun to own some of his part, but I'm not sure how much. He is tight-lipped on that at times. I will also say that when discussing some of the issues during the apologies and taking responsibility phase, some clear misunderstandings came to light. It was shocking. I was glad to have the opportunity to clear up a few of those. But still he seemed to want to cling to them. He feels hopeless and out of energy, I think. I think he thought D would be easier than fixing and now it's turning out to be a struggle.

[Cyrena]

Hi Flowmom,

I've been reading, here and elsewhere, your honest assessments of where you failed as a wife, and I've been impressed by your introspection.

As Kalni said, the LBS tend to go through a stage where they do recognize all their faults in the marriage, and want to confess them to their spouse. It feels as though it would be a kind of emotional housecleaning. I remember doing it myself, to some degree, and just want to caution that you'll probably get little or no reaction, and certainly no positive feedback. In fact, I think my H felt that I was being "condescending," as though I were trying to pressure him in some way, whereas I really felt I was acknowledging my part in our M problems and determining to improve.

You can say what you were thinking to him, but make sure you have absolutely no expectations that it will impact him in any way. Keep it brief if you do. I'd suggest, instead, writing a long letter to yourself that you then keep (so that you can refer back to how you felt in this moment of clarity), and then work on changing all of these controlling behaviours.

As we say about the WAS, "actions speak louder than words." Similarly, your H is going to notice and react to changes in your behaviour, when you start treating him as a friend would instead of a mother, and that can only be positive whether you reunite or co-parent. As you act differently, it will affect your relationships with others as well, which will make you feel positive about yourself.

You're doing well--so don't beat yourself up for past behaviours you can now criticize. Just accept that your past experiences caused you to be a person who behaved like that, and be grateful you got the opportunity to grow beyond them.

[flowmom]

Journaling about session #2 with Mr. Expensive new IC:

I feel good about the session. The support really gives me a boost right now. IC provides a qualitatively different kind of support than friends or this forum, and all three are valuable to me right now.

First we talked about my desire to take responsibility for my past behaviours and contributions to the problem. IC felt that there was a lot of blame going my way between H's blame and my own thoughts. He said that he felt that if I was in MC with H, I would be able to take responsibility for my side of things and take action to address those issues.

He asked me why my H married me, which was a tricky way to get me to tell him all the great things about me that H was in love with. I said that H loved my strength, my love of adventure and nature, he saw me as the mother of his children, he loved my loving, nurturing side, how I lived my values, my loyalty and determination, my evolving interests, and my thirst for knowledge. He asked me for some examples of how our love and connection was embodied. I talked about our canoeing honeymoon in the remote north where we were so happy together and H said that I brought new levels of appreciation and enjoyment to the experience. He asked me to think about and write about those stories of how I was loving in the M, and the connection that H and I shared. He asked me to choose to look at the stories of all the positive qualities that I brought to the M, rather than all the negative qualities.

He asked me to truly commit to self care as my most important endeavour. He asked if I could do something like go running 30 times in the next 60 days, or something that would create a real focus on me and my health, and contribute to a positive feeling of accomplishment on my part. I expressed doubt as to whether I could follow through on something like that.

He said that he was concerned about my depression history and he feels that I need to take a really active role in not falling into a pit. He warned me again about not letting my thoughts undermine me. He encouraged me to avoid isolation, to be around other people, and not let the separation story stand for everything that I am...to compartmentalize talking about the negative, and not let that take over.

He asked me how I could get back to the person that I was when H and I were happy together. I said that I didn't think I could go backward, only forward, but that I could pick up some threads from the past, like 1. my love of outdoor adventure 2. an expanded social network 3. my career and 4. a connection with men as friends and allies.

My MC encouraged me to continue sticking to my code of conduct around H: being someone who he would want to come back to.

When we talked about the dating issue, the IC felt that H was hitting below the belt in the way that he brought up the possibility of dating. The IC is going away for a couple of weeks, but in the next session he would like to see me with H or see H by himself to talk about the terms of the "trial" separation. The IC seems to feel very strongly that he could get through to H if he only had the chance. He seems to feel that our marriage has a strong foundation with a lot of positives, but that H has gotten stuck in hopelessness about the problems. The IC has a strong MC practice and has the MWD seal of approval, so his credentials are good.

What do you think about me sending this email to H?

My counsellor has requested to see you for a session, preferably with me, but individually if you prefer. He would like your participation in discussing the terms of the separation. I have an appointment booked on XXX date that we could go to together (during childcare time) or by yourself if you prefer. Here's his website: XXX

Are you willing to do this?

I would send this only a week before the booked appt.