Marriage Downgraded to Good Friends on 2/5/10

[tryingtilDorR]

Pigskin - I second the following:

And just my 2 cents on MC; if she still has the OM in the picture it will be a waste of time. I know, because my W and I went to Retrouvaille while she was still deep in her EA. While it helped communication tremendously, it did ZERO for our situation.

I did the same - we went to Retrouvaille before I had confirmed the OM but highly suspected it, but during post-sessions I confirmed the EA via surveillance. She claimed to cut contact while we finished the last few post sessions, but I later found out there was still contact.

The best thing for me to do at the time was to man up and start 'distancing' myself from her in a confident way, and not be the wussy-man trying to please her by being nice and cleaning the house.

When you go to Retro they tell you that ALL 3rd PARTY CONTACT MUST END otherwise the things you end up doing in Retrouvaille look like serious pursuit (forced communication and sharing feelings, etc), especially if WAW isn't going out of their own free will (I arm-twisted heavily) and still is in the fog with the OM.

I kind of look at it now like what happens when a girlfriend dumps you? In both cases where it happened to me they ALWAYS wanted to come back after I had moved on and started dating someone else that they thought I might get very attracted to or when their 'new' relationship fizzled. In neither case was I pursuing them at all when they decided they wanted me back (BTW I didn't go back to them - in both cases I had found someone else) Same principle applies here, strangely enough, even after 20 years of marriage and kids!

[nsw1222]

So what is it that you want? It seems like if you are insisting on a go-between it's like you're running away from her. You've got to man up and be able to face her.

A go between was suggested to me by sandi so that I could detach. I am so attached to my ex that she feels that would be the only way to detach.

As you said, when she leaves "for the day"...somedays its like she's leaving me all over again.

And as far as my reactions, I am apparently reacting to things she hasnt even done on top of things she has done.

With what I've posted in my sitch, apparently the main thing that those who've read it think will work is essentially cutting off contact in every way.

I've either gotta "run away" as you put it to break the dependency I have on her for my happiness and risk becoming a faint memory in her mind, or stay and be her friend and possibly have some happiness while risking torture from OM getting all the real closeness with her. And either way I go, there are no guarantees...she might still end up with OM.

[MrBond]

"I've either gotta "run away" as you put it to break the dependency I have on her for my happiness and risk becoming a faint memory in her mind, or stay and be her friend and possibly have some happiness while risking torture from OM getting all the real closeness with her. And either way I go, there are no guarantees...she might still end up with OM."

You're reading this stuff all wrong. I think the others sense how deeply embedded you are to your sitch and so are recommending to "go dark". Maybe you just need to "go dim" limited contact, but still getting a life.

I see that is where the issue is. You haven't been getting a life. You need it to break the dependency, not just going dark. If you never had married her, what is it that you would be doing? What is it that you've always wanted to do? Now's your chance to do it. Get your mind on something other than your M.

Get a hobby, exercise, anything. One thing I started getting into was meditation. It was great to quiet the conflict that was going on in my head when all this was going on.

Stand on your own two feet and become "the man". You need to get your confidence back. Not for her. But for you. Once you do, she'll notice. But you can't let that be the reason why you're doing it. If all you do is do things to see if she'll come back, you'll fail because it's not really in your heart to do it.

What are some goals that YOU want to achieve that are not M related?

[Vulcanized]

It is very important to project a new attitude:

Happy (Smile-Just think of the happiest moment in you life),Cool(Be very aware of your body language ;open,relaxed),Calm(Slow deep tone)Confident(Maintain strong eye contact),Mysterious(Do not explain any of your actions),sincere,interesting,engaging, Top this off with good grooming, dressing with style)

And if you are interacting with other woman:

humorous(Make her laugh),seductive(ozz sex that is more tempting than the daily variety)

remember: 93% of what you communicate is non-verbal

So, is this the same tack to take w/WAH? I'm kinda on this path, but uncertain. Is it to 'macho' too interact this way w/ H?

[tryingtilDorR]

The thing that will work on either sex is to become less 'available'. They say it is human nature to want what you can't have. If you start to GAL and become unavailable it might work in your favor in multiple ways - you will start to become more confident and feel batter with or without H, and he will start to sense that you are less 'available' to him.

Never in my situation have I made my wife feel like she is losing me because she hasn't - she has known I have always been willing to work on the M if she changed her mind. This is not a formula for success in this situation.

[Mike in Jax]

Thanks for your help - my running dialog detailing the ebb and flow of my emotional state provided a fair amount of input and a lot of direction for my new life. What I took from it is:

In order for me to become strong in any relationship, I need to distance myself from her as I am presently dependent upon her for a large portion of my happiness. I am clinging and want to talk to her - be with her - constantly. Its not to the point where I am a puppy dog but its bad enough where even I see I may be speaking of changes or how easy it will be to affect a new life, but in the end, its the same weak me which turned her off in the first place.

She wants what any healthy woman wants - a strong man who is caring and able to set a trail. One who manages a healthy balance in life. One who is flexible enough to live outside a comfort zone while at the same time nurturing enough to proactively understand and address her needs.

She has been able to detach. I have not.

In detaching, you give yourself a fighting chance to define who you are. The process sheds any habit or routine of co-dependency. It forces you to define a person who you enjoy being around. Once detached, you rely on yourself, for yourself. Want to feel pity? Sure, you can, but each day you wallow in the pity parade represents another day in which you lose an understanding of who you are - unless, of course, you are a person who enjoys being catharctic, negative, and lifeless.

At this point, the person that I am is not attractive to her.

Pursuing her at this point reminds her of the guy she grew out of love with. While the issues seem "fixable" to me, they are of larger magnitude and proportions to her . She is looking for a lifechange - one which opens the doors to the possibilities and joys that any relationship can bring to those lucky enough to have a burning fire for life. You have seen it - a person who has the fire for life can walk into a room and put smiles on people's faces, the one who listens to every word you say and committs it to memory, the one who silently leads making sure everyone is getting their needs addressed.

By living in the house, it further reinforces the "fixable" nature of our problems.

Yesterday was Day 1 of me back to work - I work from home. It was an odd feeling knowing the living arrangement has not changed but the mental status has. She is a loving person and is able to paint a smile on and keep her emotions and feelings internalized. You would never know what she is thinking. Her sheer presence exudes a caring nature - one which says, I love you. That further reinforces to me that things are fine, they are fixable - we just need to do something we haven't done in a while and that's work together to fix us. Its the same fraudulent relationship we had in the past - now with the understanding that we no longer care for each other in the same way.

But that's not what this is about. Its about a re-birth of self.

What I want to do - is tell her, if she no longer wants to actively work on a relationship with me, then she needs to move out immediately as I refuse to live as husband and wife but not work this through together. Today, we are continuing the fraud after the "breakup" as we were before the breakup. The only thing that has changed is our understanding that we are now just friends.

What I need to do - be man enough to understand that my child's feelings are most important in this arrangement and while he needs a stable home life, I need to move on with every ounce of my being to forge a new person - reach for my greatness, for me, of me, by me. That means being cordial, saying things in fewer words, working with her to move through the day but relying on her for nothing and pursuing her not one bit. You want this, great, enjoy your time on the island.

But therin lies the problem - how do I cross the divide between want and need?

Good therapy there as the "want" puts my needs first - a problem central my lack of inter-relationship success while the "need" is the solution I need to grasp as an individual to be a strong, healthy, nurturing individual on this earth.

Our son is in 3rd grade and has a state regulated test to take at the end of March. If he passes, he goes to 4th grade - if not, he repeats 3rd. He had complications at birth which delayed his development. At age 9, he is evolving himself into becoming involved in the academic process but he is a bit behind in mastering some of the fundamentals of writing, and math. He does not need any distractions leading up to the test.

Let's call it as it really is:

She kicked me to the curb and is only in this house right now for the mental stability and general productivity of our son.

If a job fired me, would I go back into the managers office to share all the good things I did and re-committ to being a better employee?

No.

I need to move in a directon that does not put her as the focal point of my life - I am.

I need to break the dependency and define who I am as a man.

If she needs other influence to stimulate her growth as a woman, then I should not be forced to respect that woman.

Mental separation comes along with financial responsibility. We are effectively roomates and as such, you will need to pay your way. Our bank accounts should no longer be linked - your money is yours and my money is mine. She should find employment once our son has taken his test while working until then to practice with him as I am now doing with him.

I have created my manifesto based on the lessons learned and provided as responses and will be using them to develop a new sense of self.

I plan on talking to the personal therapist about my need to be in a relationship to be happy in life. It really is a symptom of me having no life.

G'day all. We speak to MC today and I needed this refresher before I went in and poured my emotion and explained why my Nature and Nurture has caused me to become derailed and all that needed to occur is W and I to just work it out.

Right, that would solve it all!

NOT!

[cesco]

That was awesome... I am exactly in your shoes..
Well said..

[cesco]

My problem with all this is the timing of it all.
You start with the DBing, NC etc.. Do you give it some time to sink in before your say its time to split accounts, financial arrangements etc.....basically move on with your life which means the W is not a part of it?

[SDFoundGirl]

And the thing is, remaining detached is essential for life. When we begin relying on someone else for our happiness and being less than authentic because we're concerned about their reaction, that's always poison for a marriage. It comes out in different ways.

Pre-bomb, my H could never "hear" me when I tried to bring up issues, so I stopped trying and it came out passive aggressively. Now that we're 4 years past bomb (and three years reconciled), I'm still detached. When I have a problem, I bring it up, and I detach from the outcome. His reaction is his business; my behavior and needs are my business. Because he always has a choice and now I understand that, H responds better to the way I put things to him. It's been good for our M.

As a woman, I agree with the gentlemen here. You don't need to be a jerk, but you do need to be a man. Men have boundaries. Men don't roll over and submit to whatever the woman wants. It's why I lost respect and attraction for my H. Know what got it back for him? He bombed me. Was in an EA. I never expected that from him. I sort of believed he was the type of guy who would take anything I had to dish out and he'd always be there. He got my attention when he called BS.

Now, H wasn't blameless either, but this is my side of things. Your W has things pretty cushy right now. She gets to explore all the fun stuff with the stability of a nice home and income. Even with support, she's going to have to get a job when you D. Your S will be split between two houses. She'll have to pay for her own stuff. She's totally cake eating, but she's wrapping it all up in, "This is what's best for our S," thus making you look like a jerk if you call her on it.

But your W isn't concerned about your S if she's thinking about screwing another guy or engaging in an affair while she's still married. It's just a convenient excuse to cake eat. A smokescreen.

Be prepared for your W to lob horrible words at you when you put your foot down. What you have to always ask yourself is, "Is that really true?" Don't react. Respond with, "I'm sorry you feel that way," or, "I can see how you might view it that way." Don't defend, don't argue; get clear about what's acceptable for you, set that boundary, and hold the line.

SD

[goldeylox]

Catching up.
You gotta put on your own mask first, gang. First rule of recovery.
Trust me.
Peace.
p.s. Mike, are you involved in any 12-step group? If so, find a meeting. Today. Get a sponsor. Soon. And keep coming back here. Goldey out.