Marriage Downgraded to Good Friends on 2/5/10

[Mike in Jax]

Before I begin my situation, I must first thank the admins for not approving my membership for 50+ hours since finding this site. By doing so, they forced me to help myself using a lot of the resources on this site and have opened my eyes to a new world.

My situation:

42 year old male married to the greatest woman I have ever known for 16 years and have known her for 20 years.

I am a good provider and never stop working - even incorporating it frequently into family events.

I have had addictions to nicotine, marijuana, and masturbation since age 12.

I have always prioritized my wants and needs as high, if not higher, than that of my mates - while at the same time, I have always told people and genuinely feel that my wife is the greatest person I have even known in my life.

Over the years, I have had a sense of being a good provider, and therefore, I must be a good husband.

That all changed over the past few weeks when my wife told me she had crossed the line in communicating with a friend in California. The fact was, she liked the feelings she had felt while discussing sexuality with him and told me she wanted to meet him and pursue a physical relationship with him. I was floored - after all, I was there for her and expected to be the one to fulfill those needs!

After discussing it with her over the next few weeks, it was apparent that I was not fulfilling her needs and she was only interested in continuing our relationship the way it was with her external influence providing her intimacy needs. In her words, "I saw your best and I love you - but am no longer in love with you". I continually pointed out to her how this was a destructive thing which would surely split us up - would she want to be a single mother? Every day I would point out to her that she gave up on me - essentially firing me.

It all came to a head on 2/5/10 when she realized the only way to solve this was to downgrade our marriage to something which she knew to be true - she knew we were friends but it was obvious I had no clue of the total responsibility in being a husband. Further, she felt it was the only way she could convey to me the idea of - I love you, but I am not in love with you. No matter how I begged for another chance to address her needs, it went on deaf ears - after all, she had heard for 15 years that I would be there to take care of her but never did.

We effectively split up on Friday of last week.

I spent the entire evening Friday scouring for a support structure as I was empty inside for the first time in 20 years. I couldn't help but think that I had been completely oblivious to the idea that my vices had such a destructive component to our relationship - and now my wife was tired of settling for someone who had grown too busy for anything but work and the administration of my own vices. I beat myself up for many hours until I stumbled upon this site and found that I am not alone in falling into a common trap.

The new incarnation of our relationship, as best friends....

We are living in the same house, we are continuing to wear our wedding rings, we continue to raise our 9 year old son, we begin counseling on Tuesday She is a stay at home Mom who has a career but we elect for her to be home for our Son to provide stability that neither she nor I had growing up. She will continue to remain at home.

She has told her family that we are separated and living together for the sake of our son.

Since our discussion opened up the world of emotions 10 days ago, I have not pleasured myself and while I have thought of it a few times, the idea disgusts me.

I still smoke but have set a goal to work my way toward quitting - I just need to build the defense which placed my family's priorities (my health) as my own for the sake and purpose of me being there for my family.

Her perception is - we are friends with no guarantee or responsibility to ourselves to get back together as a married couple. If it happens, wonderful as it would mean our lives can be enriched through a healthy love language and if it doesn't, so be it, she will be a better person as a result of it for she deserves more in a mate.

We have scheduled marriage counseling and I will begin self-counselling to resolve issues which lead to my negative personality traits and destructive habits.

I am focused on correcting the fact that my thoughts and actions do not mirror each other - if I thought my wife was the Greatest, then why did I fritter our relationship away and not make her feel like the greatest? I am doing so each and every day today and feel a love coming back to me in return - yet she is quick to point out the understanding we have that says - we are friends, plain and simple.

Our situation is a bit confusing as she effectively wants her cake and eat it to. She wants the trappings of the stay at home mother life but she wants to be able to explore herself as an individual - to reconnect as a human being with other human beings.

While I could focus on that as being the primary issue, I do not for I have a self inventory of my own to carry out.

Issues I have to resolve:

1) Replace destructive habits with constructive habits.
2) Rewire my prioritization process to reduce my positioning in the list
3) Enjoy the journey - not the destination.

It is only after I can learn about these three things might I be capable of learning and nurturing more in myself and the relationships that I manage. Failing to address my insecurities, lack of confidence, or fully define what "love" means, will hinder me from my growth and cause me to be a poor fit for the one who I claim to love.

I am confident I can correct my actions and build a new love with my wife although am concerned at this point, I am set in my ways.

I would be interested in any comments. I am happy to be here and hope to enrich your lives as you have enriched mine.

Mike

[Cadet]

This is the detach link:
http://www.livestrong.com/article/14712-developing-detachment/

Welcome to the board and you are in a great place to get lots of help. I suggest you get the DB book and DR book and read them both. The principles that we speak about are in these books. It sounds like you have some work to do as what you have laid out in your post. I would also suggest you detach/NC. You also need to GAL, but a real one that does not include

addictions to nicotine, marijuana, and masturbation

What else gives you joy that are "legal"

I would continue to go to the counseling sessions but I would not tell your W about the books or anything else that is discussed here. You start doing these things for you. Not as a trick to start to win her back. That will not work. You must change for you not for her!

[MrBond]

Sorry you find yourself here on these boards. Don't know what kind of approval you were waiting on, but we all get on right away.

Onto your post. "She wants the trappings of the stay at home mother life but she wants to be able to explore herself as an individual - to reconnect as a human being with other human beings."

That's not really cake eating. She can do both, it just doesn't seem like she knows how. I think the bigger immediate issue is the OM. Is she still in contact with him? If so, that needs to stop. If she is in agreement to stay with you and go to C now because of your son, then that has to end. It doesn't set a good precedent morally and goes against your principles of being married.

So what are the exact issues that she says were the cause of the M breakdown? You listed a bunch, but didn't say if that was what she said or what you believe is wrong?

Aside from all that. Now is the chance for you to evaluate her. What was her issues in the R? Fill in the blanks and we can offer our insight.

[Ready2Change]

Hi Mike,

First, sorry to hear about your sitch. I am glad you found this forum. It is a great support network. It is really good that you and W will be seeing MC. Most of us were not that lucky.

I want to strongly suggest that you memorize these words:

Everything that works is counter-intuitive.

Consensus is not to share this website or DR with your spouse. They are your tools to get the R back on track.

Purchase and read "Divorce Remedy" by MWD ASAP.

You will need to set many boundaries with W. Read the Boundaries Thread and commit the structure to memory.

Link to Boundaries


I will go back and read your post again and puts some of my thoughts down.

[flowmom]

Hi Mike,

Sorry about what you are going through.

Read the book Divorce Remedy ASAP -- you want to get it from the "horse's mouth" before reading too much into what people post here.

I'm going to share with you something that sandi posted in my thread when I joined:

I often give this list to newcomers as a guide or work plan b/c it is a summery of DB's 180's. Hope it will help.

1.Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore! This turns the spouse completely off!
2. No frequent phone calls to spouse.......let him/her be the one to call you. Then don't try to hang on to your spouse through conversation.....instead, you say good-bye first.
3. Do not point out good points in marriage or try to get him/her to read marriage books, look at your M pictures, etc. Especially, do not get him/her to read the DB/DR book. That is for you only!
4. Do not follow your spouse around the house like a puppy dog trying to get his/her time and attention.
5. Do not encourage talk about the future. They don't want to think about a future with you at the moment, so stay clear of that subject.
6. Do not ask for help from family members or friends. Don't discuss private matters with them that would upset your spouse.
7. Do not ask for reassurances (That is showing neediness and
being clingy.) Show self-respect and self confidence.
8. Do not buy gifts to make "brownie points". (Can't buy his/her love and affection.)
9. Do not schedule dates together at this point. (That is pursuing.) Save for later when the R is much better.
10.Do not spy on spouse by checking emails, phone bills, etc. (Not good for you and will make matters worse.)
11.Do not say "I Love You" (It is being "pushy" and trying to
make your spouse say it back to you......he/she will despise you for it.)
12.Act "as if" you are moving on with your life with or without them and that you are going to be okay. Keep a good attitude.
13.Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive at all times! In other words, be the best you can be and look the best you can look at all times. Even when wearing jeans and T-shirt, wear good cologne, b/c it does cause the spouse to take notice.
14.Don't sit around waiting on your spouse to see what kind of mood he/she is in or what he/she is going to do or say – get busy, think of things to do. Go to church, go out with friends, etc. in order to get a life for yourself without waiting on your wife/husband.....but it is okay to invite them, just don't act as if it will change your plans if they do or don't go.
15.When at home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation---then don't, wait for him/her) then, be rather scarce or with your words, but don't sound rude or too short like you are mad. If your spouse asks what's wrong....just say "nothing" and have a pleasant expression on your face. Keep it short and simple. Don't get into an argument! Stay polite and don’ t act like you are pouting. Use poise and class. This does not mean to act like you aren’t speaking, but don’t be overly talkative.
16.If you are in the habit of asking your spouse his/her
whereabouts, ASK THEM NOTHING!! No matter what time he/she comes home! You are giving them space and asking no questions! You enjoy your time with your kids, friends, etc. Remember, you are getting a life, also.
17.You need to make your partner think that you have had an
awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to
move on with your life, with or without your spouse.
18.Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait
to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what he/she will be missing. (But never ask him/her if he/she has noticed any changes!!) This is important! If you do, then you have blown it.
19.No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. This can confuse some of them b/c it is not what they expected. Show your spouse someone he/she would want to be around all the time, somebody that can be attractive and fun to be with. That somebody is you! Don't overkill in your attempts to outshine another person your spouse may be having an A with (if there is OP in the picture) to the point of looking like your attempts are "fake" b/c your spouse will see through all of that.
20.All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until
your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while)so this takes patient on your behalf.
21.Never lose your cool! Don't let your spouse trap you into a fight. Don't take her/his bait.....leave the room or the house for a while, if you have to, in order to avoid a fight.
22.Don't be overly enthusiastic, don't over-kill; in anything you do b/c it will come across as fake.
23.Do not argue about how your spouse feels about something (it only makes his/her feelings more negative.) Only they know how they feel!
24.Be patient......very, very patient. Give your spouse space and time. When you pull back, it will draw them towards you. It feels opposite of what you want to do, but it works!
25.Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you. Look them in the eyes when they talk to you. Do not interrupt them when they are speaking and stop what you may be working on to look at them when they talk. This shows them that you really care about what they are saying.
26.Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to
speak out (or scream and yell).
27.Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all
the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil). This is for your health's sake.
28.Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly. Read self
help books, inspirational books or listen to tapes. They are for you only.
29.Know that if you can do 180's, your smallest CONSISTENT
actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say
or write.
30.Do not be openly show that you are "desperate" or "needy" even when you are hurting more than ever and truly feel desperate and needy. This is a large turn-off for your spouse.
31.Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse, instead, focus on them.
32.Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what
you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because
he/she is hurting and scared.
33.Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.
34.Do not ask your spouse if he/she has noticed your changes. Those changes are for you and for the rest of your life...with or without your spouse. If it is just to get your spouse back...they won't last and the same problems will return.
35.Do not send several TM's or emails throughout the day unless absolutely necessary.
36. It is best to stay away from the bar scenes where other problems easily arise.
37. Do not backslide from your hard earned changes.

I'm not sure what the issue is with masturbation? If you have a porn addiction, I would suggest that you work on that instead. If you feel that you are using masturbation addictively, to avoid your feelings, then I suggest getting into individual counselling ASAP and working on your "stuff".

[Mike in Jax]

Thanks for the responses.

Regarding the time to enable my userid - no worries, I was actually happy to have the time to use to think through my post. If I had posted Friday night, I would have been saying, what do I do? whereas now I am a bit further along, however, I feel as if I might be holding onto a security that does not exist.

I enjoy lots of things - sports, travelling, collecting sports cards, operating my Ebay/Amazon store.

I will read the detachment and boundaries section.

As for the cake and eat it too - I forgot to mention, she wants the homemakers life from me and the intimacy from the online friend in California. It is something she has creasted and it makes her feel special at this time. I no longer make her feel special that way and now its too late.

She has told me she needs time to explore herself, including this relationship as she feels fit. At this point, there is no disclosure about that relationship as we are no longer married in her eyes.

I shared this site with her on Saturday and it caused us both to be in synch with each other as it defined what I had done and how she had felt.

In summary, I spent the last 10 years going to bed hours after her and taking care of my needs after working. I recently fulfilled a number of financial goals and entered this year with a need for something else in my life - I had needs that were not being met either but after taking care of myself for so long, I had neglected the needs of my wife.

Add to that, a sense of narcissm where the world revolves around me and I can be a toxic person at times.

My wife separated with me as she felt it was time to end the disappointment and the hurt associated with telling me there was a problem followed by a short duration fix followed by disappointment - over and over.

I was so wrapped up into wanting to end my day alone that I failed to see how I was treating my wife.

When she told me the other day that every night she went to bed feeling "unwanted" I was shocked and told her, "I didn't know". She followed that up with - "no, you didn't care". I cried long and hard after that because she was right.

I have qualities that I like and ones which I do not like so its not all bad.

[Ready2Change]

Some of my advise will appear to be conflicting. If you find places where it conflicts ask for clarification. Others will give you conflicking advise also.

Rule of thumb: "The more uncomfortable something feels, the more likely it is the right thing to do"

42 year old male married to the greatest woman I have ever known for 16 years and have known her for 20 years...

I'll be 43 in March. Been DBing for 2 years. I have seen what works, and what does not work.

... masturbation since age 12....

You may be interested in reading these books:

"She comes first" Kerner
"The new male sexuality" by Zilbergeld
"The Art of Seduction"

That all changed over the past few weeks when my wife told me she had crossed the line in communicating with a friend in California. The fact was, she liked the feelings she had felt while discussing sexuality with him and told me she wanted to meet him and pursue a physical relationship with him.

This is where a boundary needs to be placed. A real man does not share his wife with anyone.

This is counter-intuitive, but the right thing to do:
"I have decided that I will not share my wife with another man. I want all communications with him to stop. I want complete transparency. If you will not agree to this, I will consider all my options including D."

After discussing it with her over the next few weeks, it was apparent that I was not fulfilling her needs and she was only interested in continuing our relationship the way it was with her external influence providing her intimacy needs. In her words, "I saw your best and I love you - but am no longer in love with you".

Keep listening. It is all about gaining understanding now. Validation is key.

"I saw your best and I love you - but am no longer in love with you".

You are going to be making many changes. You are now competing with Another Man. You need to be the better choice. 180's are key right now. Women like surprises. Start surprising her. Get a new hair style. DO NOT TELL HER WHY. Buy new stylish clothing. DO NOT TELL HER WHY.

I continually pointed out to her how this was a destructive thing which would surely split us up - would she want to be a single mother? Every day I would point out to her that she gave up on me - essentially firing me.

LOGIC DOES NOT WORK. Changes in your actions works. Change your thoughts, words and actions. You thought she couldn't/wouldn't leave. Change that thought. She has one foot out the door. She doesn't think you will change. PROVE HER WRONG. Start changing.

We effectively split up on Friday of last week.

This is another counter-intuitive part. You need to ACT-AS-IF this is the greatest thing. You are now completely happy. What you want to convey to her is that you want to be with her, but you do not need her to be happy.

found that I am not alone in falling into a common trap

You are not alone.

We are living in the same house, we are continuing to wear our wedding rings,

Same bedroom, same bed. DO NOT MOVE OUT OF MASTER BEDROOM. If you have, go back.

we continue to raise our 9 year old son

NOw is also a good time to work on R with S9. Get more involved with him.

I have not pleasured myself and while I have thought of it a few times, the idea disgusts me.

You have needs. Your W also has needs. They are very similar, but very different.

Her perception is - we are friends with no guarantee or responsibility to ourselves to get back together as a married couple. If it happens, wonderful as it would mean our lives can be enriched through a healthy love language and if it doesn't, so be it, she will be a better person as a result of it for she deserves more in a mate.

You as the man are in charge of the sex and romance department. If you are like the rest of us, I am sure it has been lacking and is rusty. Like I said, Woman love surprises. They also like anticipation. Insinuating what is coming helps a lot. It starts in the morning when you wake up. A kiss and hug, just because. It continues throughout the day.

Our situation is a bit confusing as she effectively wants her cake and eat it to. She wants the trappings of the stay at home mother life but she wants to be able to explore herself as an individual - to reconnect as a human being with other human beings.

This is where a boundary is required:

"I will not live in an open marriage. I would prefer you stay and work on the marriage, but you choose to XYZ with OM, than I will file for D." Remember, this is counter-intuitive, but the most effective way to get R back on track.

[Ready2Change]

Here are my gut responses:

I enjoy lots of things - sports, travelling, collecting sports cards, operating my Ebay/Amazon store.

If these have been in the way of the R, back off some. If they have been put on the backburner, start doing them more.

...and the intimacy from the online friend in California. It is something she has creasted and it makes her feel special at this time. I no longer make her feel special that way and now its too late

Typical response. Feeling always change. Again - A real man does not tolerate this. He does not try and control her either. THe message you want to send to her (through your actions and calm words) is "I do not want to be with a woman who does not want to be with me. If you want to be with me, then all contact with OM needs to stop right now" Strong confident men do this with style. We can get you there.

She has told me she needs time to explore herself, including this relationship as she feels fit. At this point, there is no disclosure about that relationship as we are no longer married in her eyes.

It only takes one person to change a R. She changed it all on her own. You can change it to based on your actions.

I shared this site with her on Saturday and it caused us both to be in synch with each other as it defined what I had done and how she had felt.

Nothing can be done about that now. I recommend not bringing it to her attention again.

In summary, I spent the last 10 years going to bed hours after her and taking care of my needs after working. I recently fulfilled a number of financial goals and entered this year with a need for something else in my life - I had needs that were not being met either but after taking care of myself for so long, I had neglected the needs of my wife.

That is all in the past. Learn from it and make changes. She was not meeting your needs either. Time for changes.

When she told me the other day that every night she went to bed feeling "unwanted" I was shocked and told her, "I didn't know". She followed that up with - "no, you didn't care". I cried long and hard after that because she was right.

Been there. Validation.


You have lots of work to do. Lots of internal changes to make. I did it, so can you.

I want to strongly suggest that you work on LISTENING and VALIDATION during the MC. You are going to make it all about her. Not in a needy way, but in a caring way.

Look her in the eyes when she talks and focus on everything she says. Remember every detail like she is the most important person on this planet. Then after MC, but as much as you can remember in this thread, and we will guide you.


Validation 101:

"I can see why you would feel like that"
"I am sorry you feel like that"
"It must be hard to feel XYZ"
"mmmmm"
"yes, go on.."

The MC will be a good person to learn from. He will validate. He will ask caring questions. Go to MC in learning mode.

[Wired]

Hey Mike, from another Mike here.
No way I would even attempt to give advice on the relationship with your wife as the seasoned people around here have so much to offer.
But one area I am an expert in I would like to comment. Cherish the time with your son NOW!! Do all those things that you always talk about and never seem to find the time to do. Take him out back and throw ball or take him out for an ice cream, anything you can think of to spend as much quality time with him as you can.
Do not make the same mistake I did and wait till he turns 18. You can never get those years back. And it will haunt you worse then anything your wife can ever do.

[Mike in Jax]

Regarding the evolution of the boundary in our relationship.

When I first found out about OM, it was under the guise of lost friend from California. I was fine with it. When she told me she had crossed over the line sexually, I did create a boundary which said, my wife needs to choose either but cannot have both.

Over the course of a few emotional days, she shared with me that she had decided end the relationship provided I give up smoking cigarettes (something she has wanted me to do for years). I told her it was improbable that I would quit overnight. A few days later, I was still smoking and she was still emailing with OM. A few days later, after a lot of discussion, she announced the only way she and I have a chance is to fall back to friendship, giving each other time to grow as individuals to see if this love has a chance to build itself anew.

Her mindset has changed as she has some form of detachment pointing to us being friends while at the same time enjoying same bed sleeping, me now beginning to wake up to the idea that she has needs and feels good when she is complimented or hugged. I have always complimented but was never very physical with her.

My mindset is still that of trying to win her back - and that concerns me as my focus needs to be rebuilding me, not getting back together with my wife, even though the living part of our life has not changed.

We talk, we laugh, we parent our son, we do things still as a family - all without the responsibility of being H & W.