Thanks, YoungAtHeart. Schnarch also says "It's never too late to sell yourself out", and boy, do I know what he means. That's what I've done time and again, and it really sucks. The thing that makes me sad to think about is how many years W and I have wasted, which will only be NOT a waste if we can finally turn things around, but against that is the fact that we've raised 3 fantastic kids in the meantime, so nothing can take that away. I have been holding the marriage together as long as I have mainly for that, but that job is pretty much done now. They're 18, 23 and 26 and all still living at home, and I know if I finally break up the marriage, they'll see me as the bad guy, and there's no way they'll be able to understand, but eventually I do need some chance at happiness, and can't go on living in a dead marriage. As I said, I will keep updating my sitch as it unfolds, hopefully it'll turn out to be a success story and not a cautionary tale. I do hope your W decides to change to keep you, it sounds like your issues don't go anywhere near as deep as ours. Keep the faith!