why are you talking about or bringing up or questioning her about the A? It's not an issue if she's not bringing up a reconciliation.
NO wonder she feels you won't let it go; you want her to apologize for something she won't admit...
Come on, back WAY WAY OFF...and relax. Just for this weekend, okay? THEN see what's next.
j-
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
Stuck, I just saw you wave a flag at me on another thread, so I am late getting here. It always touches my heart when you ask me to drop by.....I just wished I knew something new to say that would help more. You have already received the main suggestions that I would give about this weekend.
Quote:
That has been her main answer for everything. "I just don't want to be married anymore." I've tried asking in the past, what that meant and if there was something wrong in the M, but she just keeps giving me that answer.
I believe she relates all her unhappiness with the M, so in her mind...getting out of the M would result in her finding some sort of happiness. She doesn't know the true souce of what has made her unhappy and she continues to blame the MR.
You mentioned the state I was in when I was the WAW, and I'll never forget it. The first stages was just feeling like I had died. As someone has already said, I was "done". My body got up each day and went through the motions required to exsist, but I was not living and certainly wasn't "feeling" much. It got so bad and I didn't realize how vulnerable I was to some jerk coming along and handing me a little admiration. Guess what happened? I "felt" something inside. I didn't feel quite so dead when that happened. Anyway, you know the story so there's no need in getting off into that again. But, feeling dead was the first part.
Feeling some sort of "life" (even though it was wrong) had it's own addictions. It kept me going back to the source which made me feel alive. But then something happened next.....dealing with what I had done. That brought shame and embarrassment and all that stuff one has to face when they've sinned and when they've hurt the one who loves them the most.
I remember how I would just want to start running and find some "escape" from everything. (I even experienced panic attacks for the first time ever.) But, we can't run away from ourselves--and that was really the hardest part.
I didn't feel the full impact of remorse at one time. I guess if I had....there's no telling what I might have done. It's like facing the darkest thing about yourself and not being able to look fully at one time....and just taking in bits at a time. I'm not explaining this very well and I sure don't want it to sound like any sort of justification. It's just the way it happened to "me" and it may not be that way for anyone else. In time, the remorse came and it nearly killed me, but I knew I had to feel that in order to heal and to have any fellowship with God. Stuck, I even asked God to help me feel remorse for what I had done. Now, that's really asking for it, isn't it? But the thing was, I had so much resentment toward my H that my heart was almost like stone.
I remember a post I sent to a LBH who was hurt b/c his WAW had not apologized to him. At the time, I was still dealing with strong emotions about all of this and trying to work through my own junk. Anyway, I didn't give him the answer people thought I should.....and it set off a lot of sparks. But at the time...there weren't very many WAW's on the board, and he sure got a different POV from me.
It took me a long time before I sincerely apologized to my H. The first time he said something about me not even giving him an apology.....it just about sent me into an attack mode. I "tried" to give him a half-hearted poor attempt at one....but he knew I wasn't serious. I was not able to start healing until I was able to really tell him I was sorry for what I did.
Anyway.....I think some of that may be what your W is experiencing and maybe that's why she could never admit to her A.....IDK. I don't think your W has even begun to to take steps in healing. She wants out of the M b/c she thinks that might be the answer, but of course it's not. I think her hormones are so screwed up that she couldn't feel anything if it fell in her. I have experienced that and it is awful. She does feel dead inside. Yes, she can put on a front when with others, but that is for a short period and then she lets down. It takes energy for her to do that, but she may never admit it. She's depressed and any energy she tries to draw is for these times she feels she has to put on a good front.
I am confused about something, and forgive me for my poor memory, but is her boss the man she had the A with in the beginning when you first came on the board? Is this a different man that she has had an EA with? The fact that he has expressed feelings for her isn't good.....with her working everyday with him. But, you can't really do much about that since the two of you are S. She just needs to get another job away from him.
Anyway, I started out to tell you something and got side-tracked. If she doesn't want to "be married", then I believe that is exactly how you need to act around her. Do not think of her as your wife, and do not "treat" her as your wife. I would be very careful about flirting b/c it could come across as pursuing....while she's in the house this weekend. Afterwards, when she has gone back to her place, very light flirting (like with the check-out girl at Walmart) might be okay. But for now, I think you should treat her like your cousin or sister was over for the weekend. Be nice, but don't go out of your way to try to entertain her, etc. After all, she invited herself over.....right? Didn't even ask you? Would have been kind of funny if you told her you were having female company over for the weekend.
I still think she needs to see the loss from her choices. I agree with the others and think she needs to see this great guy she just set free and gave to the world full of desirable women.
After you look good, smeel good, and act good, GAL, etc.......then the rest is mostly up to nature. If Mother Nature is not working in your W, then I think that's the biggest problem for her right now. It's not all you, Stuck, but if she has zero hormone levels.....it stands to reason she can't be attracted. The only reason she would respond to that jerk of a boss is she's desparate to feel something again. She's just not looking in the right place. Keep shinning, Sweetie, and hopefully she'll finally see. I keep praying that she'll give up and go to a good doctor for help.
Sorry for the long post. Couldn't let 25yrs out-do me....(just kidding).
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
I don't disagree with sandi Stuck. She's got good insight. As for the flirting, only do it if you can pull it off as if you simply like her/attracted to her BUT NOT that she's the only one or your main love, etc. You have to be so careful about not coming onto her as a pursuer...and again, forget the A that she won't admit, meaning, drop it.
It's not up for discussion at this point, you know? And the idea that we'll both see our pasts the same way, is counterproductive and a bad idea. It doesn't work and their scorecards and the way we each look at the past is different. Not saying shse doesn't regret the A, I think she does deeply. But she's also got to believe it was somehow not all her fault and that she can justify it some. I would.... So just show her that you are a man only a fool would leave, and leave the results up to God, as you keep saying you are doing. I know it's tough, but you have to do it. Nothing else has worked and this gives you dignity and that counts.
I have 2 relatives who div and then remarried and it was years later and both couples were happier the 2nd time around. But they maintained some dignity as I think you have, meaning mostly not losing your temper or badgering...she blames being married for the problems she has so let her see that without the M, she's still miserable and you are not...let the truth be revealed... If somehow, she's not miserable and seems happier over time, (they always act happier right after the sep/div) without you, then so be it. Better to know now than after 10-40 more years of breaking your heart....
Be upbeat, be a great father, a good stbxh, a friend who sincerely wishes her well, (which you are, in the big picture) and that you are a great catch for the "right woman" and we'll all hope she sees that she's that woman...but know AND TRUST that you'll be alright no matter what she does. It's the truth. J-
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
Her boss she sees every day is the guy who she had the original A with. And yes he had professed feelings for her too. Of course he told her he was going to work on his M with his W after I found out. spineless.
Anywho. I haven't brought up the A to her in awhile. Sure it nags at me since she's still with the guy, but I don't bring it to her attention.
I let her stay over because, well quite frankly, she still is paying for half the mortgage and there isn't anywhere else for her to go. I wasn't looking at it in a way that I could start getting her back. That's why I had to ask everyone's opinion. I really detached enough that I didn't really want to see her.
I have been lightly flirting with her, like the Walmart girl analogy. It has gotten some positive responses, so I keep it all light. I don't think she realizes it's flirting, so I'll see where that goes. I had already decided a long time ago to not jump at any positives. If she wants to improve our basic R (even if it's for the kids), she's going to have to start doing the work.
When I got home, everyone was asleep and I was actually surprised that she fell asleep in our bed. Of course it was with our daughters, but still, she had made such a big deal over the holidays to not sleep in it, I was surprised. While I was out, I met someone and I threw all my powers of attraction at her as a test and lo and behold, she gave me her number and wanted to go out somewhere later. I said maybe and that was that. It was good practice.
She hadn't mentioned the "not wanting to be married" bit for a couple of months and at the time she did, we were in an argument about R. During that discussion, I was telling her we still needed to communicate in a meaningful way when it came to the kids. She thought that once she was out of the M, her responsibilities would disappear for the kids. It was like once they were out of her hands, they were no longer her responsibility. But that was in the past.
Right now she seems to be happy to be in limbo. Not in terms of our R, but in terms of her not doing anything for herself. She's made the kids her life and her own needs second. That'll probably change if she finds OM, but like sandi says, she could be chasing the fantasy.
Tomorrow, I've got a long day with soccer in the morning, kids class in the afternoon and carnival at night. She works in the day, so she'll be joining us for the carnival. Time to boost the charm again and see what happens. If things go south, I always have the other girl's number. Just kidding.
M-43 W-40 2D - 9 and 5
Emotion, yet peace. Ignorance, yet knowledge. Passion, yet serenity. Chaos, yet harmony. Death, yet a new life.
"...I really detached enough that I didn't really want to see her."
"...I have been lightly flirting with her, "
"Right now she seems to be happy to be in limbo."
"She hadn't mentioned the "not wanting to be married" bit for a couple of months and at the time she did, we were in an argument about R. During that discussion, I was telling her we still needed to communicate in a meaningful way when it came to the kids. She thought that once she was out of the M, her responsibilities would disappear for the kids. It was like once they were out of her hands, they were no longer her responsibility"
"...While I was out, I met someone and I threw all my powers of attraction at her as a test and lo and behold, she gave me her number and wanted to go out somewhere later. I said maybe and that was that. It was good practice."
"Her boss she sees every day is the guy who she had the original A with."
Stuck I want you to re-read several items that you posted.
Follow reality.
You really detached enough that you didn't want to see her but you're trying to flirt with her. Either your lying to us or yourself or you don't realize that you don't actually mean what you're saying.
Why would you be flirting with her if you're attempting to detach?
No it doesn't work, it's not congruent, she can see through it, it's pursuing, please stop, it won't work for you, not yet anyways, you guys are nowhere near the stage where you need to be for that to work.
Right now she's happy to be in limbo. You're happy too apparently because you accept it.
Move on with your life, create real distance between you & her and watch things change, or keep staying where you currently are and continue doing what you're currently doing (pursuing, attempting to flirt, and be "charming").
Follow reality, reality doesn't lie.
Do what works, don't continue doing what you're doing, it doesn't work.
You don't have to boost the "charm" again, it's not going to win her back, it's just going to show her that Stuck doesn't get it, she doesn't want to be with you and continuing to pursue someone who rejects you only validates their internal decision making process that they were right to leave you in the first place.
"I reject him and he keeps pursuing me, what's wrong with him, he must be lower value than I originally assumed, poor guy, I don't feel like that about him, nothing he does is going to change my mind"
You pursue someone who evades you.
That is reality.
So stop pursuing.
Create distance.
She wants something she can't have. Her boss or whatever other affair partner she has that she currently doesn't have. She's pursuing them either physically, mentally or emotionally. That's where her heart is right now, she wants what she can't have. She doesn't want what she can have easily (you).
Create distance.
Move in the opposite direction.
She has never had to chase you. You've always been there. You don't allow yourself to be chased, how could she chase & pursue you if you don't play the "game" she wants to play. She feels more comfortable pursuing what she wants but you don't want to give her that. You are going against what she wants and you still think you need to flirt and charm her and yeah that will work because boy oh boy you've had great results thus far.
Move in the opposite direction.
I'll give you one last clue, you went out, met a girl, got a phone number and she asked you if you want to go out sometime later and you said.... "maybe" and you know what, that girl is interested even more because you somehow figured out to attract this other girl being attractive also means not being easy.
Incidentally, your wife is pretty good at this game even though she isn't looking for the result she is producing. She keeps her distance, you pursue her, she doesn't want to be with you, you continue pursuing and you want to be with her.
That's reality.
So why not use reality.
Use what works, stop using what doesn't work, stop following your feelings as to what you think you should be doing.
Just do what works and allow it sufficient time to take place.
I do agree with you about the dynamics of the chase. In this case though, I've been being playful with her to gain back her trust and friendship. It's basically for the kids. Flirting was probably too strong of a word.
I'm really not that interested in getting into a R with her right now cuz she's got alot of issues to deal with. However, I feel sorry for her about the depression and while it's not my place to "cure" her or make her feel better, I still intend to keep things friendly between us.
Her depression affected her such that she was getting these mood swings that started affecting our co-parenting. And if there's one thing I have to do with her even if we may not be together is to be good parents.
Plus things have been going in a positive direction (maybe not in the way of getting together) but at least its building. I've never dealt with anyone with depression before, but once I saw it affecting the kids, I decided to do what I could to lessen it's impact.
"sufficient time to take place" is exactly right.
Thanks dude for the input.
M-43 W-40 2D - 9 and 5
Emotion, yet peace. Ignorance, yet knowledge. Passion, yet serenity. Chaos, yet harmony. Death, yet a new life.
I do agree with you about the dynamics of the chase. In this case though, I've been being playful with her to gain back her trust and friendship. It's basically for the kids. Flirting was probably too strong of a word.
I'm really not that interested in getting into a R with her right now cuz she's got alot of issues to deal with. However, I feel sorry for her about the depression and while it's not my place to "cure" her or make her feel better, I still intend to keep things friendly between us.
Her depression affected her such that she was getting these mood swings that started affecting our co-parenting. And if there's one thing I have to do with her even if we may not be together is to be good parents.
Plus things have been going in a positive direction (maybe not in the way of getting together) but at least its building. I've never dealt with anyone with depression before, but once I saw it affecting the kids, I decided to do what I could to lessen it's impact.
"sufficient time to take place" is exactly right.
Thanks dude for the input.
Why do you feel the need to gain back her trust and friendship? In fact, I think you need to let her be. As you said, this is her journey, something she has to work out on her own. Part of her depression is linked to the affair, part of her depression is linked to the guilt associated with the affair:
"He still wants to be my friend after I did what I did to him, it just makes me feel more guilty everytime he's around trying to be friendly to me."
You can be friendly but don't go out of your way to be her friend.
You can be co-parents and be civil with each other.
But the flirting with her, you need to put an end to that for the time being.
I hadn't posted but I have been following. This, like all of ours, is a really tough call. I know when I had been at these crossroads, I was soooooo scared to make a mistake. It would drive me crazy to the point I was second guessing myself constantly.
I'm by no means an expert nor should I even offer any advice with my situation being where it is. But I did want to share what someone offered to me that gave me some peace
All I can do is be true to myself if what I do and how I behave. If that is not good enough, then you can at least tell your children that you have always stayed true I yourself and what you believed in. It was her decision to control what she does.
You are handling this craziness incredibly stuck. For this it is my honor to call you brother in this crazy war we fight.
Live life without any regrets.
Love you bro
Me 41 WAW 36 S 3&7 M 10 yrs W files D 1/9/09 W moves out 4/18 Lost job 6/15 New job 7/27 Disc PA 8/10 (started Nov 2008!) Confronted 8/11 Admits PA & appologies for hurt 9/11 Lost Job 11/13
just remember, if being "true to yourself" involves being needy and insecure and pursuing a woman who openly rejects you, you are confirming the truth with your WAS that she made the right decision to leave you.
Don't pursue someone who rejects you, they will only continue to reject you.
