Doing hard time on the MLC chain gang.

[MHL]

OP,
I was in on the first part of the session b/c I needed to make sure the therapist knew of how serious the situation was the night before with D13. Without getting into specifics it was very serious. Then I excused myself so the session could continue with just the 2 of them, I actually don't see myself involved in any more sessions unless my D13 feels she needs to say something to me in front of C that she doesn't feel comfortable telling me by herself.

I am gathering that D13 IC session didn't go entirely as planned.

Her counselor obviously did not understand that someone may say something and not mean it, in otherwords LIE!!! Meaning that my W may have said something to my D13 and it was a lie. My D13 wants to indict my W on some lies yet wants to believe her when she says things like "I'm never coming back." or "your father disgusts me". Still it was very good for my D13 and she likes the C as do I.

I think that therapists, Counselors, Pyscologist, etc. somehow think that their "couches" somehow have the power to make people tell the truth. My W lied her way through countless sessions and I bet she is still lying to her C today. I'll never forget the look on my IC's face after I told him that my W lied through her teeth during the last Joint MC with me, W , W's IC, my IC. It was pure astonishment on his part.

This whole thing would be easier if there was not this rift between my D13 and my W.

Maybe "easier" is a bad choice of words.

[cat04]

I am not throwing stones at my wife here but until you said abuse I never realized that the things my W said to my D13 on Oct 31, would fall under the heading of "abuse". I recognize the event as a one time event but it happened, and I understand just how "crazy" my W was at that point in time.

Please do not misunderstand me. I never said your W was abusive.

Was the interaction inappropriate between a 13yo girl and her mother? Probably.

My big question to that though is why does your D know the specifics anyway?

For my D13, my W's behavior continues, specifically the lies and the lying to her. … My D13 cannot understand/accept anyone who is still doing the things that continue to hurt her, D13's C doesn't really understand either

While this is something I do understand, I think this is really a moment in time and unless the behavior is something that has gone on for years, with time, this will simply become easier.

and like everyone else, thinks that I am nuts for remaining open to reconciliation with my W.

So, are you living for everyone else or yourself?

It is difficult for my D13 to see me be nice and friendly to my W in spite of what she has done or is doing. D13 and I are close now, very close, when we talk she asks me, "Dad, don't you see what Mom is doing? It is not fair for her to come to the house or for you to be nice to her, she does not deserve you"

You are the parent. You set the moral code and compass in your life. Not your 13 year old D.

Do you really want to allow a hormone, emotion ruled teenager dictate how you as an adult allow yourself to be treated or who comes into your home or not?

At this stage, she is speaking and reacting simply from emotion. This is not something she may understand at this point but it is up to you to set the bar.

Do you want her to believe that you think it is ok to just walk away from someone because you do not like what they are doing or do you want her to learn that people are NOT perfect, we all make mistakes and sometimes a little bit of forgivness, tolerance, kindness and patience is necessary and actually the better way to handle situations?

Put her in the bad guy role if you have to. Ask her “if you, when you are driving, take my car without permission, wreck it, and then want me to forgive you, should I just put you on the street and walk away, because you had poor judgement? Or should I give you another chance?”

My response on several occassions has been that, " my W does deserve me and deserves my forgiveness, but if she choses not to come back I will be okay and we as a family will be okay"

The only response that I have ever given my S is that “You may not agree with the choices I am making. I did not choose this situation, but I am choosing the best actions for me."

My daughter views this as being weak and that is the really tough part for me.

Is this about your male pride?

Eventually, your D will be in a R of her own and then she will hopefully understand that you are not weak at all but that what you are doing takes an incredible amount of strength. More than it would take to walk away.

In the meantime, you can show her your strength in other ways. As her father, a man who guides her, a man who can find happiness in his life, inspite of the current situation.
By being her rock through all of this adversity. Not by constantly trying to convince her of why you are making the choices you are making.

You are the adult. You are rational. You are not going to simply act out of anger, fear, frustration, or any other emotion. You want to take your time and make the right choices for everyone. In the meantime, being nice to your W is simply doing nothing more than treating her the way that you would like to be treated.

IMO, I would not allow your D to judge your choices. It simply is not up to her.

[MHL]

Please do not misunderstand me. I never said your W was abusive.

Was the interaction inappropriate between a 13yo girl and her mother? Probably.

My big question to that though is why does your D know the specifics anyway?

Cat,
Thanks for the words of wisdom, all things I know but is sometimes need to be reminded especially coming from the mother's perspective.

The big question everyone asks is how does D13 know all this stuff?

As horrific as this sounds, my W told her when my D13 unloaded on her after A #2 was exposed. I was not there but my neighbor/ good friend was there for my daughter b/c my daughter was afraid of my W, afraid that she would hurt her. After the 1 hour exchange our friend filled me in on what was said b/c she was concerned for my D13 mental health afterwards.

My W told my D she had been with multiple men, one night stands, that she was addicted to the attention. She was an adult woman and had "needs". My W went on to explain that OM#2 had all the qualities she was looking for in a man. She told my D that she thought that I had hired him to seduce her and fall in love with her so I would have more ammo for a Divorce and could take D13 and her brother away. She went on to promise D13 she would stop seeing OM#2 if D13 wanted her too. Never did. My W ended the conversation saying that she was going to have to leave D13 and her brother to be happy. This entire event took place 3 days after a family counseling session between my W and D13 where wife had promised D13 that OM#1 was biggest mistake of her life and would never ever happen again. She had been in R with OM#2 for at least 2 weeks at that time. Biggest issue for D13 is the lies and then the lying about lying.

Heavy stuff I know, but I try to explain to my D13 that mom was sick (true) and still is to a degree, but she is on meds now and that she is getting better.

Not disagreeing with you on anything, just saying that the sitch IMO is extraordinary and that my D13 has a maturity of an older child. While she is the child and I am the adult I am trying to take into consideration what she does know about something that is way beyond her years.

In the meantime, you can show her your strength in other ways. As her father, a man who guides her, a man who can find happiness in his life, inspite of the current situation.
By being her rock through all of this adversity. Not by constantly trying to convince her of why you are making the choices you are making.

During the part of the session with her C that I was in on, I did tell my D13 that she may not understand my decisions but she will come to appreciate what I am doing some day. Also she knows that she can come to Dad to tell me anything and Dad will always be there just to listen.

[mb28]

missherlove,
I wanted to say that I was about 13 when my mom and dad split up. There was 4 of us kids, but I was the only one that lived with my dad. I hated my mom, and wanted nothing to do with her. The sad thing is that my dad was the one having an affair not my mom. They did get back together, which I was so mad about. But a few years later when I started to realize what my mom had to go through, her and I became very close. I hope someday your D and W will have a realtionship again.

[MHL]

Hey mb28,
I just saw the post on your thread you are doing great!!!

I do want my D to have a R with my W but I want it to be with my old W and so does my D. During the R talk with my W the other night I told her that our D's kind and caring spirit comes from her mother. I told my W that the very best of our D comes from her and how she raised her. That was met silence, I know my wife is now being judged by the moral compass that she set herself in our D. Ironic isn't it.

[mb28]

How all of this affects the kids, is the hardest part. I think it's harder on teenagers then the littlier ones. I hope they do reconnect some how.

[Cadet]

I want it to be with my old W

I know this is what you want but this is not what you should expect.

Learn to keep expectations to zero.

[MHL]

I see more and more of my wife these days instead of the alien. When I have dropped my son with her in the past week, I know she is trying extra hard to smile at me and be nice. These are glimpses of my old wife.

It is hard to look her in the eyes, at times I am feeling a connection with her. I see the affectionate look reflected back at me, I need to learn to do this with her but not get intangled. For me it is easy to be nice and friendly with her, but I have to keep it in check to maintain the detatchment.

[trustingfaith]

I have found that it is harder to remain detached when you do see the "real" them. This is when you have to work hard to keep those expectations at zero because they are still not themselves and it could still be a very long time until they are.

[MHL]

TF,
I am prepared for the time thing. I was writitng in my journal this morning and really started recalling events and times and know my W started down a slippery slope back in summer of 2008 but I don't think it started in ernest at that time. That was the beginning of WAW mode and that lasted up until I kicked her out or shortly before hand which would have been August of 2009. August 2009 is IMO when she went full on MLC.

My head keeps the expectations at zero, it is the heart that I have to train not to get hurt or keep the pain tolerable. I feel like the pain lets me know that I still care but the pain makes the time a challenge to endure. I love your signature, "Endurance is a testament of love" so true.