Hi MB, yes, if you watch Michele Davis' DVD she has here she makes a point of this fact :
"My advice is not rocket science. Its' very easy to understand... but its VERY hard to execute consistently.. even I forget somtimes and my husband catches me on it"
It IS important that he knows you want the marriage. It is important that he knows the affair is doing DAMAGE and making things a LOT WORSE.
But he does NOT need you to argue or to pursue him to know this. You state it calmly with DETACHMENT and WALK AWAY.
I konw its hard. Just do it for your kids... and for yourself... its not "attractive" for you to engage in his meladrama.. ok?
Just let him wring his hands in his drama and fight with the OW about how stressful his situation is... he WILL fight with her and DOES... believe me it happens.
If YOU don't fight, and SHE does argue with him.. he's going to come TO YOU...
Just think like a mother... they don't let thier kids' drama's overtake them... mother's know how to detach really well.. work with that and you will be fine..
It is hard to do, but with practice it gets easier... I can look back now and imagine how silly i was for arguing... it doesn't help at all.. it just validates their fears and makes things a LOT worse...
Drama BREEDS more drama... don't let it draw you in. Step back and be the mature one... just look at how immature he's being.. you don't want to set an example like that for your kids do you?
Its ok to show him hurt in your eyes and to tell him she's hurting you... but Don't argue.. state the damage she's doing and WALK AWAY and DON'T let him bait you BACK... he WILL counter and say something to try to get you pissed and attack him.. its a TRAP
Allen A, Thank you so much, this last post of yours really helps clear my head!!!
I have these intentions when I know I'm going to have an encounter with my H. However, then I see him acting all sneaky on his phone and then find out he didn't go home until late, and it makes me crazy. Then my mouth runs away with me, and I can't control myself. I know I'm getting better at not saying everything I want too, it's just hard to stop, but I'm working on it.
Together 16 years Married 12 years Me 36 H 34 D9 & S6 Separated 12/3/09 Confirmed A 1/25/10 Exposed A 1/26/10 H hired L, but not filed yet 1/27/10
I've still been following this..... I know what you mean about trying to be happy, upbeat, seem like the better choice. It's EXTREMELY difficult to be that, well at least it was for me, after all the hurt/betrayal, etc. he inflicted on me & my heart. It almost angered me. I guess what bothered me was I didn't have the affair, why am I fighting like hell to repair what's been done, you should be fighting to hang on to me and our marriage. He wasn't, which I guess tells me a lot. When I caught him on Friday with another woman, only then was it I'm ready to tell you everyting from the beginning, can't take this guilt, only I could screw up this bad, this isn't what I wanted, I still love you. Those words seems absolutely ridiculous to me. Ballsy even. I guess I'm hoping to hop off this rollercoaster and have some peace. I can only control me.
I hope that your H stops contact with the OW and realizes the damage it's doing. SO many are affected but they don't think about that, affairs are selfish. Stay strong, and if you need anything....at all please I'm right here for you. I understand what you feel.
I don't know if I would say be happy and upbeat. There is some debate regarding the particulars of implementing Divorcebusting when an affair is taking place.
There are a few camps.
Michele advocates the "Little Bo Peep" technique as Pupper here likes to call it. This entails being the better person, being a stirling example of warmth and optimism, basically acting as if there IS NO affair taking place. The reasoning is there that all that warmth will make a wayward spouse, even one having an affair, return to the household.
There is a less optimistic technique, I will call the "Ghandi method" for lack of a better description.
The Ghandi method entails something similar. Be a better person, being a stirling example of maturity and optimism, but PROTEST the affair and EXPOSE to all marriage-friendly friends and family who you are sure will support you and help influence the WWS into returning to the household.
I am advocating the latter technique. Its been my experience both in reading posts on this forum and the affair that attacked my home on and off for over three years that the Bo Peep method sends the WRONG message to affair engaged wayward spouses. The message they seem to hear in most cases when the Bo Peep method is invoked is :
1. I am OK with a unilateral Open marriage. 2. I am not hurt at all by your actions, in fact they please me. 3. You may continue indefinitely as I will not interfere in any way.
I find this is what happens when you offer warmth without protest of the affair.
The Ghandi method involves being inviting to reconcilliation and optimistic, BUT... PROTEST the affair and EXPOSE to all influential parties you can. This puts a LOT of pressure on the affair engaged WS, builds some confidence in the abandonded spouse since they are actually ACTIVELY PROTECTING THEIR HOME, and lastly this allows the abandoned spouse to both preserve their dignity and their self-esteem.
I am calling it the Ghandi method because this method involves NO AGGRESSIVE actions directly against the spouse, as this will do damage long term.
No interrupting affair phone calls. No throwing computers out the window. No name calling. No blame. No physical violence No locking the spouse out of their computer or home No threats to divorce
None of that... just EXPOSE what he's doing and tell him how horrible it feels and WALK AWAY.
This is less painful I found than simply smiling and saying "have a nice day"... not to mention it restores some dignity to you in the process.
Michele's got some great advice, even concerning affairs, but being nice and keeping the affair a secret doesn't put an end to it.. it allows it to THRIVE from what I have seen and read here.
There are other family therapists out there, good ones, who don't recommend Michele's approach.. Phil McGraw being the most well known I would say.
Nikblondview, I do understand how frustrating an affair-wracked home is... I live in the aftermath of one even now.
The reasons you are fighting for your marriage are because you love your spouse. The fact that they aren't loving you in return, and are even HURTING YOU is to a degree erroneous.
True love is unconditional. Meaning that you love your spouse, it isn't love-butonlyifyouarelovingmebackjustasmuch
In extreme cases this can lead to enablement of an addictive affair. I do NOT advocate that. But I DO advocate loving a spouse who has strayed and gotten involved in something that has caused them to lose their senses.
Loving does NOT mean playing Little Bo Peep. EXPOSING an affair IS an act of love in my opinion. The success rate of affair couples is less than 1%. When you challenge an affair and protect your marriage you are saving yourself AND your spouse a lot of misery in the long term.
You can look at it this way. If your spouse was drinking to excess or gambling the family savings away etc, you likley wouldn't give UP and run right away. You would TRY to get the spouse some HELP first. Affairs to my mind are no different.
This is NOT enablement if you ATTACK the addictive source to put an END to it. Simply acting as if the addictive source does NOT EXIST ... IS ENABLEMENT and not at all constructive.
I don't doubt your husband felt guilt, but guilt is not enough to get people straight again once they are in the throes of the affair's seductive nature. Guilt is one of the cycles they go through.
AT some point making a break from your marriage because the affair is too painful or destructive is certainly understandable, and only YOU can know when that point is.
I do advocate fighting for your spouse, even when they in their overwhelming hopelessness have given up on you and began aknew in secret with another. Fighting is essential to the memory of your marriage, your integrity, and to ensure that leaving is the best course in the first place. One must explore saving something before tossing it away.
Fighting should not mean rolling over and pretending your marriage isn't under attack by a bottle, a casino, or a wreckless and selfish member of the opposite sex. Homes are precious but delicate and should be respected by all of the community, and shoudln't be looked on by others as inviting targets to feed a good time from when things inside the home have gotten strained. Fighting means full acknowledgement that an attack on your home is underway. HOW you fight that is with integrity, a strong voice, and full disclosure of the truth to all who may help you.
I don't know if I would say be happy and upbeat. There is some debate regarding the particulars of implementing Divorcebusting when an affair is taking place.
There are a few camps.
Michele advocates the "Little Bo Peep" technique as Pupper here likes to call it. This entails being the better person, being a stirling example of warmth and optimism, basically acting as if there IS NO affair taking place. The reasoning is there that all that warmth will make a wayward spouse, even one having an affair, return to the household.
There is a less optimistic technique, I will call the "Ghandi method" for lack of a better description.
The Ghandi method entails something similar. Be a better person, being a stirling example of maturity and optimism, but PROTEST the affair and EXPOSE to all marriage-friendly friends and family who you are sure will support you and help influence the WWS into returning to the household.
I am advocating the latter technique. Its been my experience both in reading posts on this forum and the affair that attacked my home on and off for over three years that the Bo Peep method sends the WRONG message to affair engaged wayward spouses. The message they seem to hear in most cases when the Bo Peep method is invoked is :
1. I am OK with a unilateral Open marriage. 2. I am not hurt at all by your actions, in fact they please me. 3. You may continue indefinitely as I will not interfere in any way.
I find this is what happens when you offer warmth without protest of the affair.
The Ghandi method involves being inviting to reconcilliation and optimistic, BUT... PROTEST the affair and EXPOSE to all influential parties you can. This puts a LOT of pressure on the affair engaged WS, builds some confidence in the abandonded spouse since they are actually ACTIVELY PROTECTING THEIR HOME, and lastly this allows the abandoned spouse to both preserve their dignity and their self-esteem.
I am calling it the Ghandi method because this method involves NO AGGRESSIVE actions directly against the spouse, as this will do damage long term.
No interrupting affair phone calls. No throwing computers out the window. No name calling. No blame. No physical violence No locking the spouse out of their computer or home No threats to divorce
None of that... just EXPOSE what he's doing and tell him how horrible it feels and WALK AWAY.
This is less painful I found than simply smiling and saying "have a nice day"... not to mention it restores some dignity to you in the process.
Michele's got some great advice, even concerning affairs, but being nice and keeping the affair a secret doesn't put an end to it.. it allows it to THRIVE from what I have seen and read here.
There are other family therapists out there, good ones, who don't recommend Michele's approach.. Phil McGraw being the most well known I would say.
Nikblondview, I do understand how frustrating an affair-wracked home is... I live in the aftermath of one even now.
The reasons you are fighting for your marriage are because you love your spouse. The fact that they aren't loving you in return, and are even HURTING YOU is to a degree erroneous.
True love is unconditional. Meaning that you love your spouse, it isn't love-butonlyifyouarelovingmebackjustasmuch
In extreme cases this can lead to enablement of an addictive affair. I do NOT advocate that. But I DO advocate loving a spouse who has strayed and gotten involved in something that has caused them to lose their senses.
Loving does NOT mean playing Little Bo Peep. EXPOSING an affair IS an act of love in my opinion. The success rate of affair couples is less than 1%. When you challenge an affair and protect your marriage you are saving yourself AND your spouse a lot of misery in the long term.
You can look at it this way. If your spouse was drinking to excess or gambling the family savings away etc, you likley wouldn't give UP and run right away. You would TRY to get the spouse some HELP first. Affairs to my mind are no different.
This is NOT enablement if you ATTACK the addictive source to put an END to it. Simply acting as if the addictive source does NOT EXIST ... IS ENABLEMENT and not at all constructive.
I don't doubt your husband felt guilt, but guilt is not enough to get people straight again once they are in the throes of the affair's seductive nature. Guilt is one of the cycles they go through.
AT some point making a break from your marriage because the affair is too painful or destructive is certainly understandable, and only YOU can know when that point is.
I do advocate fighting for your spouse, even when they in their overwhelming hopelessness have given up on you and began aknew in secret with another. Fighting is essential to the memory of your marriage, your integrity, and to ensure that leaving is the best course in the first place. One must explore saving something before tossing it away.
Fighting should not mean rolling over and pretending your marriage isn't under attack by a bottle, a casino, or a wreckless and selfish member of the opposite sex. Homes are precious but delicate and should be respected by all of the community, and shoudln't be looked on by others as inviting targets to feed a good time from when things inside the home have gotten strained. Fighting means full acknowledgement that an attack on your home is underway. HOW you fight that is with integrity, a strong voice, and full disclosure of the truth to all who may help you.
Allen,
That was beautifully and powerfully stated. I have never -- EVER -- given "5 Whistles."
Seen H Wednesday night and he tried to trap me into a fight. On Monday, he tells me he wants to try to see if we can work it out, and then by Wednesday he says he is done again. He started to try to talk about R, I walked away, and of course, he followed me. He eventually broke me down (I hate him for that) and I told him that I can’t work this out as long as he is still talking to OW. “But she is just a friend, the only one I can talk to about us”, he said. I replied with it was his decision whether to continue a relationship with her or not, but I will be no part of it.
At midnight the same night, he texts me: I’m sorry. I am lost and I handled tonight wrong. I do love u I’m just hurt. We need to find away to communicate without hurting each other.
The next day he calls me and said how he doesn’t know what to do to fix our M. I told him again that I couldn’t as long as he is talking to OW. He keeps telling me that he doesn’t believe that I really love him, and he is scared I will kick him out again and tell him I don’t love him (which I have done in the past). He said this is where he doesn’t trust me. My IC said when he says these to me; it’s his way of telling me he doesn’t trust me not to hurt him again, and that I should reassure him. He also said he can’t remember the last time we were happy, with which I gave him some examples and he agreed. I told him I didn’t believe he could remember the good times because all he can do is dwell on the bad times. He finally said maybe we can start by sending nice texts to each other a few times a day, so he sent me one that said, “You’re a great mom”. I replied with “I like your smile and you looked very handsome last night”. He replied, “You looked really good too”.
Tried to track down OWH on Wed, and was unable too. They have no house phone, only cell phone, and I can’t get that number. He’s not on FB or anywhere else. Any ideas on how I can get his cell phone#?
I do believe that the OW is pressuring my H to leave me and their phone calls have gone from 20 min to 2-5 min long. It appears that she is the only one trying to stay in contact with her calling him.
Together 16 years Married 12 years Me 36 H 34 D9 & S6 Separated 12/3/09 Confirmed A 1/25/10 Exposed A 1/26/10 H hired L, but not filed yet 1/27/10
OK... I know this is going to be hard but do NOT give in to him when he seeks you out. Leave the home if you have to. And if you walk out of your home he has to stay with the kids right? That means no OW.
He needs to know he can't have you both...
Responses for "She's the only one I can talk to.."
SHE is just doing DAMAGE AND HURTING YOUR FAMILY... she's NOT helping.
She is NOT the only one you can talk to. You have friends and there ARE FAMILY THERAPISTS that are TRAINED to help families with problems without HAVING SEX with you... She's NOT a PROFESSIONAL THERAPIST ... She's not helping she's HURTING... me, you AND OUR CHILDREN.
She's not a therapist, she's ATTACKING your marriage AND your FAMILY.. you should be PROTECTING US from HER
My advice is to follow OW or get a friend to follow her. That should lead you to OM eventually if you don't know where he lives. Or hire a private investigator to do it.
You are doing well though.. you are walking away and focussing on the problem. It's ok to attack HER with FACTS in protest. Just don't criticize HIM at all. NO NAME CALLING. Stick to facts that will wake HIM up about what SHE's doing to your home.
Next time you set a boundary and he tries to follow you LEAVE or SHUT the DOOR behind in a room, lock it, and play loud music to drown him out. TELL him you want to be ALONE until she's GONE.
If you try some of the dialog above and he tries to tell you she's just a friend IGNORE it and stick to the script.
You need to practice protesting without him baiting you into a back and forth fact-refuting banter.
Tell him she's attacking your home.
He will deny the affair. He will tell you she's a friend. He will tell you she's helping.
IGNORE it. Repeat "she's attacking your home" and then LEAVE...
Once you have said it once or twice he has heard it enough and you don't WANT to repeat it.
Just enough to get the protest in his head and then get OUT of there. If you protest and THEN an argument ensues the protest won't have any impact, he will just remember the argument after it and feel hopeless.
Some therapists reccomend writing out a script for your self.. MEMORIZE LINES like in a play and rehearse them.
Once he's there and you read them... the scene is over... just WALK OUT.
Part of the problem is he's getting your mind into his drama. If you have everything you want to say memorized then he can't pull you in. Just stick to the script and ignore him.
I have done this, it does work. The protest needs to be SHORT and NOT hostile. You state your case and exit. No long drawn out crying and shouting... that's not helping him. Remain calm while he's panicking. Remain quiet. Tell him she's attacking his home and his family and you need him to PROTECT his home and family. Then LEAVE.
I have been following the advice that you and puppy have been giving mb28 and just last night i told husband I will not interact with you while you are having a talking to OW.
H responds: What are you talking about. I am not talking to her about anything other than our son.
Me: It is not up for debate. As long as you are in an relationship with her, I am not in one with you. This is not a three person relationship.
I leave with son to go out to dinner.
When I return Husband engages in conversation asking me what I was saying earlier before I left. I told him that I made myself clear, we have nothing to discuss other than our son and household business as long as he is interacting with OW. He tried to make a joke, i replied,"I would love to one day be able to laugh and joke with you but I find nothing you say funny and we no longer have that type of relationship while you are involved with her." More denial on his part and then he kept trying to ask where is all this coming from, what proof do I have, why do i think he is involved with her, etc. I told him none of it is up for debate and that was all.
My question for you Allen is "What do I do now?" We are in the same house together so of course there will be some talk, but I do not want to go back to the same pattern. I really meant what I said but I also do not want to be childish or walk around my house with an attitude. he has talked to me some today and I have responded but haven't been chatty..just simply answer him if he asks me a question. Is this correct?
Sorry Mb28 to highjack your thread. I have really been following along and think that you are doing a great job and have seen alot of progress with your husband.
Me: 28 H: 32 1st marriage 4 both 1 1/2 year married 2gether for 9 1S: 6months 1stepson: 2yo
