Finally had some time to re-catch up with your sitch. Sounds like you are getting some good advice and doing well. Here are some of my thoughts...
I would put your M DB efforts on temp. hold and focus on D13. Make sure she is able to come to terms with mom. Is the C you are using a licensed child pyschologist? I know your W is in la la land but have you accepted some responsibility for the M issues you are facing and conveyed those to D13? (You know I think the world of you so I am not trying to be critcal.) You asked if you should lie or tell the truth about the current sitch to D13. I would absolutely tell the truth, but she needs to understand this is not all of your W's fault. This does not excuse your W and her actions. I think this approach could pay-off down the road...here's why.
If you can somehow "really" engage your wife in meanding the R between her and D13 and work closely together with her on this tasks, what effect will this have on your W's perceptions about you? (this is assuming D13 is no longer placing all of the blame on mom) I think it will demonstrate to your W that you understand why she is doing what she is doing (validation!!). The process of working together to forge a new R with D13 and your W may generate some family bonding that she is missing and with any luck, help the two of you re-connect. I also think working on a common goal like this will help you show the changes you have made in a non-pursuant and indirect manner.
This is a pretty complicated subject so hopefully this makes some sense. If not, drop me a FB note and I will give you my number to further discuss.
Will do on the FB thing anyhow but I am keeping it real here, the advice has been far better than any C session I have ever been to.
You really brought up something that I have thought about but have repressed. That is if I get my D13 and my W to reconcile that will help me reconcile with my W. As much as I want to "work on" or "do something" to "fix" my M, I know that I can only really work on myself for me. If I truly want my W and D13 to have a R, I will aide that for the benefit of my D13.
Now I have to be honest here and keep it real. I have thought about my D13 hating and detesting my W for the rest of my D13's life, the ultimate "See what you have done, serves you right biotch" to my wife. I would be lying if I said that evil thought never crossed my mind especially in the scenario that my W and I never reconcile.
The flip side of that thought is "What a great father and husband I will be if I can somehow foster reconciliation between D13 and my W" and my W will obviously come running back into my arms.
I do know that ultimately my D13 will benefit from having a R with my W no matter what, even if my D13 doesn't realize it right now. I am not sure where my D13's C (not psycologist but licensed child therapist, I researched her thoroughly) falls on the subject of whether or not my D13 "needs" to have a R with my W. I am letting this person be my D13's C and not an extension of what I think should happen, (exercise in letting go and non-controlling behavior for me.)
I am rambling here b/c it is late and I need to hit tackle this in the am. Needless to say, working with my W towards a common goal does present opportunities to demonstrate good changes in me w/o pursuing but I need to keep it about my D13 and not let my desired outcome with my W, impact decisions about helping my D13.
More tomorrow, I am wiped!!!!
Oh yeah, thanks again to all......in the words of Wayne and Garth "I am not worthy".
Formerly "missherlove"
Me49 XW49 M17 T19 S16 D20
Expose yourself to your deepest fear; after that, fear has no power, and the fear of freedom shrinks and vanishes. You are free.
I'm ready. I thought I'd be more nervous. Maybe that will change tomorrow but now,nothing. Well I take that back. I'm a bit nervous about the child care arrangements. Talked to W today and she says she is nervous. Been like that all week.
That's a tough situation with your D13. The fact that you are considering the ramifications, investigating both sides of the issue and at the same time evaluating your own motives proves your a good father. This is a great less for your D about unconditional love.
As some who grew up without a mother I'm pretty sensitive about the relationship between my kids and W. I'd tend to push for the best possible relationship between them regardless of how our situation turns out.
_________________________ Me-41 W-39 M-15 yrs T-17 yrs D-12 S-9 S-8 B 5/08 S 1/09
Sending positive thoughts your way, C-Bart. I'll be thinking about you all this weekend. Everyone is nervous going in to Retrouvaille, but they get you involved pretty quickly, and then it gets calmer. One thing, if your wife is not playing by the rules of Retrouvaille, don't hesitate to ask a team couple to give the two of you pointers.
You really brought up something that I have thought about but have repressed. That is if I get my D13 and my W to reconcile that will help me reconcile with my W.
It won't. Not directly anyway.
Quote:
Now I have to be honest here and keep it real. I have thought about my D13 hating and detesting my W for the rest of my D13's life, the ultimate "See what you have done, serves you right biotch" to my wife. I would be lying if I said that evil thought never crossed my mind especially in the scenario that my W and I never reconcile.
This is vindictive. Please do not let your D or your W know you have had this thought.
Quote:
The flip side of that thought is "What a great father and husband I will be if I can somehow foster reconciliation between D13 and my W" and my W will obviously come running back into my arms.
This has nothing to do with what kind of husband you are.
It has everything to do with what type of father you are.
To foster the R between your W and your D, will show your D that you are a good father.
In order to do that, you have to remove yourself from the equation emotionally.
Whether we want to admit it or not, unless there is extreme abuse, all children need both of their parents. Good or bad. Happy or not.
Regardless of whether your D wants to see her mother or not, at her age, she does NEED her. She needs her for guidance as well as to complete that separation process that Jack referred to that occurs when children go through adolescence. To figure out who she is becoming as she transitions from girl to woman. She also needs a R with you to make this transition successfully.
Quote:
I do know that ultimately my D13 will benefit from having a R with my W no matter what, even if my D13 doesn't realize it right now.
She won’t realize it. She is a 13 year old girl. These feelings are actually normal although they are probably intensified because of the situation.
Quote:
I am not sure where my D13's C (not psycologist but licensed child therapist, I researched her thoroughly) falls on the subject of whether or not my D13 "needs" to have a R with my W.
This is actually a question I WOULD ask, because IMO, any child therapist should recognize the need for parental input, at least at the beginning. Later she may determine it is not a good idea, but I don’t get the feeling that she has been around long enough to make that determination yet.
This is a very difficult thing you are struggling with.
We see how this impacts our children and because we are not the ones causing the pain directly, it is very easy to get angry and place the blame on our S. And to hold to the idea that they are not good or effective parents.
Although I do not think my H is the best father he could be right now, and I fought for a long time whether I thought he was a good father at all, I chose to listen to my S’s feelings about the matter. He has a good handle on it even though he does have anger with his dad.
I have, in living my life, left them alone, with H having the option of being responsible or not, and although their time together has not been as enriching as I might like it to be, when I come home after being gone for a weekend, the house is still standing, S has been fed, and life continues.
I cannot judge him for what I think is lacking in their R. That is for them to work out. All I can do is be here, as a sounding board for my S and his feelings, as his mother, his friend, his stable person. He is 15 and a half. He recognizes this from me now. He did not when this all started. But because I have been here and been consistent, he is doing well. Not perfect, what child is? But well. Much better than he could be doing.
I see no harm in being perfectly honest with your kids. “I have no idea what is going to happen down the road. I am willing to consider every option that is there. For now, this is where we are and we are going to do what we have to, to make ourselves happy and not let this destroy our lives.” Or something to that effect.
"Acceptance doesn't mean resignation. It means understanding that something is what it is and there's got to be a way through it."--Michael J. Fox
Sending positive thoughts your way, C-Bart. I'll be thinking about you all this weekend. Everyone is nervous going in to Retrouvaille, but they get you involved pretty quickly, and then it gets calmer. One thing, if your wife is not playing by the rules of Retrouvaille, don't hesitate to ask a team couple to give the two of you pointers.
Thanks Lotus. I'll make sure to work with the team couples if we are having any issues.
_________________________ Me-41 W-39 M-15 yrs T-17 yrs D-12 S-9 S-8 B 5/08 S 1/09
You really brought up something that I have thought about but have repressed. That is if I get my D13 and my W to reconcile that will help me reconcile with my W.
It won't. Not directly anyway.
Quote:
Now I have to be honest here and keep it real. I have thought about my D13 hating and detesting my W for the rest of my D13's life, the ultimate "See what you have done, serves you right biotch" to my wife. I would be lying if I said that evil thought never crossed my mind especially in the scenario that my W and I never reconcile.
This is vindictive. Please do not let your D or your W know you have had this thought.
Quote:
The flip side of that thought is "What a great father and husband I will be if I can somehow foster reconciliation between D13 and my W" and my W will obviously come running back into my arms.
This has nothing to do with what kind of husband you are.
It has everything to do with what type of father you are.
Cat, Thanks for your thoughts and I agree that my actions or non-actions moving forward will be as a father and not husband. I have been trying to teach my D13 the lessons of forgiveness and acceptance. It is my hope that she will look back on the experience and draw upon it for strength and wisdom when things get tough for her later in life. I want to leave the legacy of the parent who rose above the pain of the situation at hand to view the bigger picture.
Originally Posted By: cat04
Whether we want to admit it or not, unless there is extreme abuse, all children need both of their parents. Good or bad. Happy or not.
I am not throwing stones at my wife here but until you said abuse I never realized that the things my W said to my D13 on Oct 31, would fall under the heading of "abuse". I recognize the event as a one time event but it happened, and I understand just how "crazy" my W was at that point in time.
For my D13, my W's behavior continues, specifically the lies and the lying to her. My challenge and/or the C's challenge is to get my D13 to accept that my W is going to continue to lie about things. Of course, I understand the mind of the MLCer and accept it. My D13 cannot understand/accept anyone who is still doing the things that continue to hurt her, D13's C doesn't really understand either and like everyone else, thinks that I am nuts for remaining open to reconciliation with my W.
It is easier for everyone if I just say "yes, we are getting a divorce, my W's actions speak loud and clear, she is never coming back this M is dead and I am moving on and i need to help my children accept this fact." The only people that understand where I am truly at on this are here on the boards. It is true we are pushed to divorce by society, friends, family and 13 year old daughters. If I am going to teach her this lesson of commitment, forgiveness, acceptance and agape love, I have to be truthful with her about my feelings towards my wife.
It is difficult for my D13 to see me be nice and friendly to my W in spite of what she has done or is doing. D13 and I are close now, very close, when we talk she asks me, "Dad, don't you see what Mom is doing? It is not fair for her to come to the house or for you to be nice to her, she does not deserve you"
My response on several occassions has been that, " my W does deserve me and deserves my forgiveness, but if she choses not to come back I will be okay and we as a family will be okay" My daughter views this as being weak and that is the really tough part for me.
I really don't think that my D13 will have a R with my W unles we reconcile, no matter my efforts to foster the R between them. I think my D13 will get to a place where she is not angry but will not want to be in a Mother/daughter R with her mom. I think that my W will have to "own up" to what she has done and apologize to my D13 but if my W does that then that would be a major piece to the mending of our R.
I think time and patience (where have I heard that before?) will be the part of the equation that determines the ultimate outcome.
Formerly "missherlove"
Me49 XW49 M17 T19 S16 D20
Expose yourself to your deepest fear; after that, fear has no power, and the fear of freedom shrinks and vanishes. You are free.
I think my D13 will get to a place where she is not angry but will not want to be in a Mother/daughter R with her mom. I think that my W will have to "own up" to what she has done and apologize to my D13 but if my W does that then that would be a major piece to the mending of our R.
I from own experience do not agree with you here. As your D13 matures she will make peace with her mother and they will have there own relationship. My D23 had a very similar time with her mother when she was between 13-16. It was always causing problems in our household. I naievely chalked it up to hormones. Both my W and my D and this caused strain on my M at that point in time but we survived it. My D23 turns out to be bipolar, W is depressed(MLC) but their R now is better than when she was a teen. D23 still has issues, but she has matured and become an adult that is responsible for her self. I can only say that you are indeed laying the template for what is to come. Just keep being the best dad you can be.
I am gathering that D13 IC session didn't go entirely as planned.
