As I see it, the dilemma for me is how can I shake up my spouse enough to want to do something about our SSM without taking drastic steps like having a full-blown affair, going through with a divorce, moving out, etc.?
In the previous thread, it was argued that I've already had an affair, etc. I'm not interested in arguing about the definition of an affair or whether I in fact carry the scarlet "A" or not by someone's defintion. It's not black-or-white. Because, regardless, none of the things I've done so far has shaken up my wife.
Some of you have argued that what I've done has turned my wife off. Well, my response is that in the first many years of my SSM, I was did not turn elsewhere in any way. And we went to therapy, and I brought up the topic many times, and we went on romantic getaways to try to rekindle the flame. That did not work, at least as far as restoring the physical relationship. It was great for our friendship, but not our physical relationship.
The point is that I have not had an affair that involves a major change of our life. I know many of you will laugh at that distinction because you look at it from your own perspective, and how you would NOT tolerate it. Well, that's the difference, you wouldn't, and my wife has. Would you have given your husband Playboy calendars and approve of his attending strip bars just so he can get it out of his system and not bother you with his sexual urges?
The fact that some of you turned your marriages around without having a shake-up affair is not encouraging to me, because I have to assume your spouses were more responsive to your efforts. It seems to me that many of you had to have your affair to sufficiently shake things up. You might have regretted it afterwards because of all the pain and all it caused, but since you don't get to reset and replay reality, you could not know the likely irony that the milder course might not have worked after all. I believe we sometimes operate on instincts which are smarter than our intellects at times, especially when it comes to some of our second-guessing and "grass would have been greener" with an approach which would actually not have worked.
Another example which perhaps biases my opinions is that of my friend for whom nothing worked until he actually moved in with another woman. Divorce papers, moving out to an apartment, etc. did not work. His wife called his bluff. She was "through" with sex and couldn't understand why it was so all-fired important to her husband. I talked to my friend about his situation as he went through it, and we couldn't think of anything more he could do. It wasn't until he moved out of the apartment and in with a woman that his wife finally got religion and wanted him back. Apparently, the fact that any other woman on the planet would even take a liking to this somewhat socially awkward guy suddenly made him hot property again to his almost-ex-wife.
I can't imagine what advice someone could have given my friend that would have worked, aside from what he did. He had to get to the point where he was utterly convinced there was no hope to continue working on his marriage, and just find someone else. Understanding that, and that her husband was in fact capable of finding and bedding and moving in with another woman, was what it took. She finally understood that she had in fact "lost" her husband and that SHE had to do something or he'd never be around again.
I have just sat and read your entire previous thread. I recommend you do the same - go back and re-read the entire thing from the beginning. You might see something you don't see as you continue to return the ball back to each and every poster - you might see the entire game for what it is.
Why are you posting? Is it just to moan and tell the world what a rotten deal you have? Or is it because you actually want to solve this problem?
You seem to be willing to rock the boat just a little but as soon as her toes get wet you stop. You are being a wimp - this is why your wife has no sexual attraction to you and cannot find her sexuality with you. Rock the boat and wet her toes, rock it some more and make sure she's good and wet, tip the boat right over. This is the ONLY way it will work.
I will tell you the story (in brief) of my own M. My H was LD, he was/is also an alcoholic. The LD was tearing me apart, as was the alcoholism. What I did not realise was that I was enabling his behaviour - I was enabling it because like you I was susceptible to all his ways of getting me to back off whenever I tried to address the issue. In the end it was by MY realising that I could no longer live this way (really not put up with it anymore - not just felt like I couldn't. I went 10 years with the feeling I couldn't stand another second). When I finally did get it, that I had to have another life and living in this purgatory was not doing any of us any good, then I was able to say quite calmly and matter of factly to him "I will not be living in an alcoholic marriage in 12 months time" and really mean it. He knew I meant it, just by my tone and the look in my eye. This is not something you can fake you have to feel it, then you will have the right tone.
When I said that, I went about my business with the clear intent that I would not be living the same way in 12 months time. It worked, but only in fact by the marriage dissolving. What happened was he tried at first to conquer his drink problem, he tried hard and to his credit that worked for about three months, then he backslid. When he backslid I did not react or think "oh he had a good try". I just continued about my business and let him work it out. He couldn't. In the end he came to me and said "this marriage isn't working - you don't love me any more". Fine.
The same thing might well happen if you went to your W and said "I will not be living in a celibate marriage in 12 months time". She might try to work on herself, and she might not manage. She might decide that the shame of not achieving that is strong enough for her to say things like "you don't love me any more". And the marriage might end.
Are you ready for that? Because until you are nothing will change.
Understanding that, and that her husband was in fact capable of finding and bedding and moving in with another woman, was what it took. She finally understood that she had in fact "lost" her husband and that SHE had to do something or he'd never be around again.
Yes, this woman was stubborn. He meant it and she finally got it.
You think you've tried everything, but you haven't meant any of it. It's just been hot air. You are desperate to keep your marriage together and you are submitting to her definition of what a marriage is in order to do that. Look at your marriage - is it what you want? If it isn't then stop putting up with it. Putting up with something is not strength although many people think it is because of the pain involved - putting up with something because the effort to change is harder than the pain we're in is the wimp's way.
She is not sexually attracted to you because you are a wimp.
I know I'm being harsh here, but you need to hear it. You say you are almost 60 - my FIL is 67 and he is dying. Do you want to be dead before this gets sorted out?
Hap
if we can be sufficient to ourselves, we need fear no entangling webs Erica Jong
...then I was able to say quite calmly and matter of factly to him "I will not be living in an alcoholic marriage in 12 months time" and really mean it. He knew I meant it, just by my tone and the look in my eye. This is not something you can fake you have to feel it, then you will have the right tone.
...The same thing might well happen if you went to your W and said "I will not be living in a celibate marriage in 12 months time". She might try to work on herself, and she might not manage. She might decide that the shame of not achieving that is strong enough for her to say things like "you don't love me any more". And the marriage might end.
Are you ready for that? Because until you are nothing will change.
+1
I have been in a much shorter SSM situation. It took our sex therapist to twice confronted my wife with the fact that she knew that we were headed for divorce if nothing happened. And then asking me if I had thought of divorce and my saying that I would divorce my wife if we could not find a way for our relationship to contain touching and sex, before my wife understood that she needed to change and for her to agree to become sexual again. Our marriage is by no means out of the woods yet, but a change has happened that makes me hopeful for the future.
I am not saying this is the answer. I am only saying that is what happened in my situation (so far).
I had come to the conclusion and truly believed that I would divorce my wife, even though I love her and love her company. In the Pasionate Marriage they talk about reaching a crisis where your integrity demands that you take action and that you can not retreate from that position. I felt that comment was on target.
I have also been reading the book Mating in Capitivity, which talks about some of the same concepts within the Pasionate Marriage Book, but with different titles. In Mating in Capitivity there is a discussion about security versus risk/exploration and that the security is intimacy and time together, while the risk/exploration is where the passion and sex within a marriage grows. This is in some ways similiar to the Pasionate Marriage's concept of differentiation and marriage as a people growing process.
My only other comment is that the phase, "..how to shake up spouse without having an affair?" basically implies how can I change my wife.
I think that ultimately we are better off, when we change ourselves and allow our partner to change with us and join us. That means that if we feel that we need to change, we don't know where the change will take us. It could be a change that will mean that we have to give up something we really value, like our relationship with our wife. Those kinds of changes are very frightening, but ultimately we do them for ourselves to get a life and live with the consequences. As we make those changes in ourselves we need to communicate the change to our spouse and offer them opportunities to understand that we are changing and to join us. However, our spouse may choose not to join us and that ultimately is their choice.
Good luck to all of you.
>43 years of marriage--My wife and I are now closer than we have been in decades. I believe that my SSM is over.
ssmguy, you said: "As I see it, the dilemma for me is how can I shake up my spouse enough to want to do something about our SSM without taking drastic steps like having a full-blown affair, going through with a divorce, moving out, etc.?"
The answer is: you can't. You must be willing to leave her over the fact that your marriage is sexless, or else just continue to accept things the way they are. Its that simple, and we've all spent over 20 pages previously telling you this.
You said: "I can't imagine what advice someone could have given my friend that would have worked, aside from what he did. He had to get to the point where he was utterly convinced there was no hope to continue working on his marriage, and just find someone else. Understanding that, and that her husband was in fact capable of finding and bedding and moving in with another woman, was what it took. She finally understood that she had in fact "lost" her husband and that SHE had to do something or he'd never be around again."
Yep. That's what it will take. It won't even necessarily have to include another woman. But it will have to include the willingness to leave if things don't change for the better.
And in case you haven't realized this, this would be the same answer no matter what the problem was.
It is quite common for people to come here with the same question you are asking, because they want their situation to change without them having to take such drastic measures. And we all advise them the same way: you have to reach the point where you are willing to walk out rather than continue to accept the situation. You don't have to walk today or tomorrow, but you do have to be willing to accept that you will eventually walk, and then you have to make that clear in no uncertain terms to your spouse. There is really no other way.
You don't have to walk today or tomorrow, but you do have to be willing to accept that you will eventually walk, and then you have to make that clear in no uncertain terms to your spouse. There is really no other way.
Yes, thanks, that is pretty clear to me at this point. Though I find myself resisting that path so much. It's hard to face up to the fact that I may become another stastic, after so much effort to avoid it. And even after my wife and I years ago talked about how we wouldn't let that happen to us.
You could always grip the lapels and shake vigorously back and forth. (She doesn't know judo, does she?) WARNING: Do not do this.
I don't mind the jokes at all, keep 'em coming. A sense of humor has gotten me through a lot of this. Sometimes I can only laugh about life's "sitcom" situation where, of course, only someone with a sustained sex drive as high as mine is going to be with a wife who wants no sex at all. Kind of like you hit all the stop lights only when you're late for a meeting.
A friend once suggested getting my wife drunk and slinging her over my shoulder and carrying her to the bedroom. Funny as a joke, but not my style in reality. But of course, not funny at all for the all too many women who've experienced that in the form of date rape, typically in college or around that time of their lives.
You think you've tried everything, but you haven't meant any of it. It's just been hot air. You are desperate to keep your marriage together and you are submitting to her definition of what a marriage is in order to do that. Look at your marriage - is it what you want? If it isn't then stop putting up with it. Putting up with something is not strength although many people think it is because of the pain involved - putting up with something because the effort to change is harder than the pain we're in is the wimp's way.
One wants to be sure that one has done everything BEFORE threatening the "nuclear" option. I'm sure you'll agree that's not weakness. So patience necessarily means time. She has in fact explicitly said she needs more time. But she's certainly had more than enough at this point.
A friend once suggested getting my wife drunk and slinging her over my shoulder and carrying her to the bedroom. Funny as a joke, but not my style in reality. But of course, not funny at all for the all too many women who've experienced that in the form of date rape, typically in college or around that time of their lives.
At risk of getting myself into all kinds of deep water - why not?
No date rape is not funny.
This is not date rape, you have been married for a number of years. Seriously is what she's doing to you any better? Forcing you into a situation where you have to go outside the marriage to get your needs met? Short of castrating you is there anything more cruel?
She had a bad thing happen to her when she was young is she going to let it ruin her life? And yours? It's genuinely about time she got the f&ck over it and it's about time you led the way.
if we can be sufficient to ourselves, we need fear no entangling webs Erica Jong
