It does seem that you have quite the decision to make. In my opinion you situation goes way beyond mid-life crisis. You referred to the affair approximately 12 years ago and then add that there were affairs prior to and after this. Though you say they were EA I would think that there is a lot more to these stories that your wife is keeping in hiding. Personally I don't hold that against your wife.....she is continuing to fulfill a pattern that she has had since childhood.
Your wife was sexually abused as a child by multiple family members. So at this point sexual activities have probably developed into a catch-22 for her. In her mind she is more than likely linking initial sexual activity to love, or being loved (hence "she is a pleaser"). To her, she had to have some form of sex so that these people would love her. Then from there continued sex with these people caused a new response to repeated sexual acts in that sex was being used as control (as we all know....sexual abuse is about power and not about the act itself).
So in your situation....she comes back to you in sexual overdrive because she links that to the love she so desperately wants....but that quickly changes to you having control over her (even if she initiates sex, because she feels that is what she has to do for you to love her). She then begins once again to resent you. I really feel for you, because I feel that no matter if you are super husband or not....these problems would still arise. This even carries over to non-sexual parts of your relationship because everything about her gravitates around her childhood issue of being controlled. Hence the blow up about the money....you were controlling her in her mind, yet that could be far from the truth.
I would like to see you change your mindset. You cannot help her, you can only help yourself. The only person that can help her is herself likewise. Usually I would agree with the above posters and go very dark and NC, but maybe the path should go elsewhere. Maybe try to develop a completely non-sexual friendship (I know easier said than done). IN developing that relationship you could possibly break the cycle she is used to living in....in that she might stop tieing sex and control together.
One boundary I would definitely enforce.....is that she begins individual counseling on her own. Not marital counseling, just individual counseling to deal with her demons.
LFW-I believe there is much correct in your assesment. The PA was 15 years ago, with many ea's or "helpless encounters" sprinkled in before and after. I too think there is much more then I have ever been told about all of them and that is part of what is eating her up.
I think she does equate sex with love and then flips out feeling controlled and emotionally empty. Going dark does trip her out and I think she then feels completely abandoned so she falls off the planet with nc to any family members for weeks. I too think it's much deeper then a MLC.
My problem is that I have been in the middle so long it has pulled me down and worn me out and the reality is I just cannot do it this same way anymore.
I sat down yesterday and wrote a very matter of fact boundary letter in what I would no longer tolerate in our marriage. I felt very good about it that morning. That evening I reread it and wrote another one that was softer, trying to say the same thing. After a few hours I reread it and it also felt a little harsh. I wrote one more, that praised the good things she has done in the last few months, pointed out how proud I was of her working and that I would not try to tell her how to spend her $ and that it was completely hers and I would still give her space but that I would also answer the phone if she needed to talk.
I did not say all the things I had in the 1st or second letter, I certainly did not lay out nearly as many boundaries, but most was spent in patting her on the back. I think she is in one of those funks that she cannot handle much of anything negative right now. I did let her know that the fence sitting was wearing on me and I was ready to move forward, hopefully with her.
I leave for a week long trip next sunday, and if I have not heard anything from her by then I will leave another "kind" letter pointing out that the M seems to me to be stuck and that it is not healthy for either of us, and if she is not able to move forward together in working on the M which includes some actual work (IC) then I will support her in moving to end the M.
I will try to say the same things as in my other letter, just in a kinder way. My experience is that no matter how I say it, it's received as beating her up, but that is the pattern. She has until the 16th of feb to serve me with her filings from oct and I am going to try to get this off dead center one way or the other before that point, so if it's going that way she can use the $ spent on the paperwork and get this out of limbo.
She will blow a gasket for sure when she see's what life is really gonna cost. She gives me $30 a month for her car insurance and $10 for her mobile ph. My daughter tried to explain how expensive it really would be when she has to get her own policies, let alone her own health insurance and she thought she was being lied to.
As pointed out, SHE is the ONLY one that can really address her issues. I don't think I could even ask her to go to IC w/o her tripping out and claim I am trying to say she is crazy, or that things are not my "fault".
Trying something different seems to be one of the mantra's here and I am. Going completely dark may land her in the hospital. Slowly weaning away as a husband, but her feeling I will still be a friend, even through a D may help her deal with life, but THAT would certainly be a struggle for me. It's a whole lot easier being full in or full out. The partial tug-o-war and the ensuing emotional roller coaster takes it's toll on me.
I fear for her mental well being for sure, but mine may have to have the priority right now, or I cannot help anyone else at all.
"We are both deeply religious, don't smoke or drink and are committed to family-and I thought our marriage." The answer to staying committed to your marriage or not lies within your own personal convictions. It really has nothing to do with your wife...just the man in the mirror.
We agree that your wife has something much deeper than MLC bothering her.....and as the past has shown, problems that have not been addressed properly. Until she does addresses them, you to will continue to spin in this circle. I see three choices for you;
1-Jump ship (against your personal integrity) 2-Continue to ride the roller coaster (Hurting you) 3-Stop the cycle
one and two seem to be the easiest option....but both will have consequences on yourself. Option three more likely will be the hardest in your situation and one in which you will find little help here (plenty of support, but little help). Like we both acknowledged above...this problem is much bigger than MLC and DB'ing. The question is "How does a spouse deal with another spouses PTSD?" for that you will definitely need a professional. Have you discussed the whole history issue with a counsel/therapist? Don't ask for answers, just guidance in how to deal with these situations.
Something tells me you aren't an "easy way" type of guy!
You're onto me. I am not an "easy way out" kind of guy. But...I have struggled for years with how to save the M. Up until just 8 months after she left the last time in Sept of 07 I thought it was mostly "my issues".
After I went through the denial/grieving/my fault scenario, I finally came to grips with how many things were not really my fault, as counselors tried to pound that into my head. I was aware of it, but not fully processing it.
With the strange behavior after we got back together (as Bill Cosby used to say-"C'mere, c'mere, c'mere...get away, get away, get away) I began to see it was not that much about me but something deeper. When she left again in Oct 09 I was somehow not surprised. The same type behavior has continued and I have gone through those same scenarios, though not nearly as intense or as long.
I have come to the conclusion that I am indeed adding somewhat to her confusion or behavior by not putting down some solid boundaries, while at the same time having a pretty good idea where this will lead. In the last 2 weeks I have got my head around the fact that I cannot be so worried about her reaction that I do nothing and stay in this limbo.
Getting a D has had so many implications for me I could not even accept it. I WAS content to do anything to not have that moniker affixed to me. I have finally gotten to a place that I realize, it is not MY choice, but I also can see that what I am in is really not a marriage anyway, and it is worse being stuck, then moving forward.
I have been to counseling recently. I have been told (again) that this is my wife's issue and without her working on it, things will just get worse. IF she does work on it, it will be very similar for at least 2 years, and more like 10, and I need to work on me being healthy emotionally again.
After 13 years of the yo-yo program I've taken a good hard look at me, and can say I feel I have done everything I can. I don't think even God expects more of me without my wife doing some hard lifting herself. I will do what I can in the next few weeks to encourage that and keep an open mind. At the same time-I am very much done with this R the way it is currently setup.
If I make her aware that this is not working for me and that I want to go forward WITH HER, and this is how I think we should go forward, she then has a choice of what to do. Work on the problem, or not. I then have a choice of what to do. Stop the cycle or not. The only choice to that, that I see is end the M. I would not consider it "jumping ship" after all these years.
I just do not see my W doing much about her issues w/o going through a D and getting down the road a few years and seeing that it was never really about me. There is something in her that never has been addressed. Should that be done in a similar fashion without a D? Maybe. I just do not have the strength for it anymore. And I think in my wife's head, that she needs that "freedom" of a decree to really feel I have zero control of her and she is completely on her own. I really think that is what it is going to take for her to get to the point that she looks in the mirror and does a serious self evaluation and moves forward on what it will take to address her issues.
I could be wrong? I'd like to be proven wrong. I don't think I will be though. Sad
If stopping the cycle does not include a D I'd like to hear what it is? I am still open to options that work.
I agree with your counselors advice completely....even if she wakes up tomorrow and says something is wrong and let's fix it....it is going to take a long time. I also agree that you can only be accountable for your own happiness.
I wish I had experiences or thoughts that would be constructive, but I don't. I really feel bad for both you and your wife. You both are know dealing with issues that weren't of your making, but now you have to pay the price for others poor actions. I see on here often newbie's wanting to shake there spouses out of their fog having the knowledge that it will happen when it does. But in your situation she has lived in the fog for so long....probably since her teenage years that it is now her reality. My only offer of advice is to be her friend...listen...be there when she needs a shoulder, but at the same time work on detaching yourself and rebuilding the next part of your life. They can be done at the same time...it takes strength (which you have shown over and over) and unconditional love (which you have shown over and over), but one that I feel would work for in the end.
We have a place here in NY called "Four Winds". You can google it. It is a psychiatric hospital. Maybe in your area there is some place like this. My recommendation is for you to get her into a place like this. Intense IC and medication. If she will not do this you should run! I do not see a solution that will work any other way.
I have come to the conclusion that I am indeed adding somewhat to her confusion or behavior by not putting down some solid boundaries,
DBS,
Agreed.
You're looking for an option that does not mean Divorce.
How about an ultimatium?
(HEADS up new people, this is NOT the normal way to go about this. DBS has been trying for a long time. Ultimatums are a last resort.)
The ultimatum IS a boundary.
HOW you bring it up is just as important as the words. And you Need to live with her picking from the choices you give her.
You get concilling and work on this, and we get concilling and work on us, or I do not see this working out anymore. I love you but I have no more in me to give unless I see some sign that we are worth it from you.
And DBS, it is all in. She chooses not to and you don't end it...then your a paper tiger in her eyes, a door mat.
This is really all or nothing, a last resort.
Experience is a brutal teacher, but you learn. My God, do you learn. - C.S. Lewis
Life is usually all about how you handle Plan B. - Jack3Beans
Listen without defending; Speak without offending - FaithinAK
I am very young, dbs, and I am intimidated by the depth and breadth of your situation. Let me say that I cannot imagine many men who would hold on for so long to someone so volatile. I've been traipsing around through your threads since running into you on WAS forum. I see you have been very frustrated by lack of response...I just hope I can find something to say worth listening to.
While I agree with many of the posters here about your wife's serious mental condition, I am concerned about the consensus that she needs to get help for herself. Mentally ill individuals, even those of a much lesser degree than your wife seems to be, are rarely in a state capable of seeking the help they so desperately need. Trapped within our own minds, we often cannot find the way out alone. We can't even find a guide to help us! So just telling her she needs counseling may not be enough.
Is she a danger to herself? Not just the thought of intentionally harming herself either. Does she put herself in situations that could easily become dangerous? I don't know if there are specific state laws, but is there any way to force her into psychiatric treatment against her will? I know, that is a serious thing to think about. And maybe I am wrong. As I say, there are many older and wiser people here. But the woman you speak of has gone beyond being ill, and I'm afraid that even on one of her best days she could not be mentally well enough to go to an IC.
undefeated 24 H 24 S's 4, 2, 1 M 5 yrs
"Most of the important things in the world have been accomplished by people who have kept on trying when there seemed to be no hope at all." ~Dale Carnegie
I found something in each of your post that definitly resonated in me. Some truth!
First-OP. I really feel that intense IC is her only hope. Now "getting her in there". Next to impossible, especially here in AZ. We went through that with our son who exibited some of the same strange behavior, just worse and more extreme. To the point he showed up at our house one night intent on shooting me and I got the wife and I out before it happened, but when the cops showed up he had 2 guns locked and loaded in his truck waiting for me to return.
He spent a week in jail, but once turned loose he drifted for months before getting back in jail and having meds forced on him. He would not listen to reason or suggestions to see a doc or counselor until he was made to. That mental issue history has many in my wife's family with similar issues, although if there is ANY suggestion she has an issue, she thinks you're saying she is crazy, and you are on the nc list. I'd like to see that happen-(her in intense IC) I just don't see how right now?
LFW-I do agree she desperately needs a friend. She really has none. Acquaintences at work, but no one she pals around with. NO ONE. All her former friends from our former area just a few miles away, she alienated when she left in 07. Will not talk to ANY of them. She will hang with kids or grandkids unless someone says something she does not agree with, and then...you are on the nc list until she decides otherwise. Her Mom exhibited the same behavior the last 15 years of her life (about the age my w is now.) She would be a hermit, and seemed to constantly move her entire life. Never stayed anywhere for very long, and had 5 people other then her family at the funeral. That was sad.
Yes I will try to be her friend, even if that's all it will be...to a point. If we get a D, I will not be the fix it guy, nor will I be there for any sex. I will definitly move forward. The counselors used to console me that it was a good sign that all of her troubles got dumped on me, because I was "safe" and she felt she could trust me to take blame for everything in the M. Not so consoling to me. Our D's may have to be the support if she'll let them, cuz she has felt the 2 S's have told her things they had no place to say (they have told her to get in or out of the M and quit making my life miserable). Guys thinking I suppose.
I think I can be a friend (to a point) and still detach. An ex H and friendly might be possible, but not a friend in the way she needs/wants.
J3B-I think you are RIGHT SPOT ON with this suggestion. In fact, giving me the words helped immeasurably! That just brings clarity to the situation, and really does make it her choice. I would reiterate very clearly what my choice is, but leave it up to her that if X is her choice, then Y must be my choice.
I thought today of a good anology she MIGHT understand. She has worked at this WalMart now for over 6 months with the promise she would be full time after the first of the year, and all the benefits that go with it. (In fact I think this has been the hold up to not following through with the D-She wants to make sure she has insurance first). Anyway-she has become more then a little impatient that it isn't happening and is tired of just a part time arrangement. Guess what? I'm tired of a part time W. I am tired of not having a full time W with all the benefits, including living together, and being there to serve and support each other. She might get that comparison, although not agree with it.
On the other hand, she may have me served this week and I will willingly get on with the process, which would surprise the bejeebers out of her, and that's ok. It would not be a bluff at this point on my part.
Regardless, I think I do lay down an ultimatum before leaving town next Sunday, and do it as kindly as possible, still encouraging and inviting her to be a part of the M by working on the M, but letting her know in no uncertain terms, that if we are not going to work on this, it's time to move it down the tracks.
All of you guys (and gals) have been most helpful with your suggestions. I know the answer is not necessarily here, but it's good to have some support anyway. As you all know, sometimes you feel like life has kicked you in the nads, then thrown you in the deep end, and you're doggy paddling just to keep your head above water, but man does it hurt! Thanks!
I think that is a good place to start....you have been strong and taken a lot of blame for a very long time. Sometimes you have to stand up first to help others see what must be done for them to stand up also!
