Also, it might help you to practice saying exactly half of what you feel like. Even the neutral seeming stuff if he has decided that you dominate the conversation.
Another thing that might help is for you to use empathy. Consider the fact that if you two loved each other at all, his rage could be a front for grief over losing this relationship. This is not to say let him walk all over you. Just to help you work on your own reactions by guessing that there is a very wounded person underneath all that anger and sniping.
Wow, rr22 really good advice. I'll have to read up on your sitch. You have no idea what a relief it is to hear my H is doing somethings that someone else is doing. It is all so confusing, this "training to be in a reactive state by constant exposure to the noxious stimuli of his rejection". I love that. I mean, I hate it, because for nine months, it has been true. It's a relief to know that he's not the only one doing these things because it makes me feel less at fault, less alone, and more like, hey, if this is typical, then I can see it as BS.
If you read my previous sitch, I've come a long way to be where I am. However, your advice is timely because I'm just now starting to see that taking space is for ME, not something I'm giving him in hopes to "get him back". We are separated, he has an apt., but he's here 3-4 nights per week because of our S5. Me going out too much all the time was an issue pre-bomb, so I've often thought being around more was a 180 for me.
But I'm making smaller space making steps, like not calling, not inviting him places (I learned that one the hard way this week!) and you're absolutely right, the next step is to turn him down. That's tough when he never invites me anywhere lol. But I'm sure I'll be able to give him the vibe.
He keeps testing me about my birthday like "What are you doing for your birthday?" (ie not including him) and "You should do this or that" (still without him), but today said, "If you go to X, I may swing by and have a beer." Like I'm supposed to be so thrilled that he would grace me with his presence. It was a big step for me not to invite him and tell him I wanted him to do something for my birthday, but you're right, a bigger step would be to perhaps uninvite him! I acted very cool when he offered to "swing by" = I did not show I cared one way or the other. I just started talking about all the other people I would invite!
He probably will invite you somewhere if you stop calling him totally, rarely text him back, and avoid him when he comes over for son. It may take a week or more. If he has issues with control or pressure, he sees invitations as controlling. He is going to ignore your birthday or do something weird and passive aggressive that will make you cry. Believe it and prepare mentally. You could free yourself from the whole birthday drama by announcing plans that he did not suggest that could in no way, shape, or form include him. Maybe a special night out with parents for only you or friends for only you. Or a play he could not attend because someone else gave you tickets and was taking you (clearly not a date, but clearly exclusive). He is already messing with you about it, seems like. He needs to see that you make your plans ahead of time so in the future he can commit ahead of time or not. But don't point this out to him. Just do it in the spirit of moving on for you.
He will also be angry after you do this birthday plan even though he left you no recourse than to make plans for yourself or get dashed. They seem to like to blame you for moving on or depriving them of an opportunity to wound (protect yourself) even when they intiate the whole thing. If he hates his mother (as I think you stated earlier), he needs counseling about that too if he hasn't had it. Not that you can suggest it now. Good luck. This is a tough one. Have you set a mental timeline of how long you will allow yourself to be in this situation or are you gauging it by how much progress is made each few months? Just curious how other people handle that.
I think you are right that he sees invitations as controlling - he doesn't "hate" his mother, but she is very manipulative so he keeps a large distance from her. I think you're right also that he may try to pull the rug out from under me re: my birthday, so I'm going to make plans on my own. I don't need the games. Today I got a little hope up when he claims he might "drop by" if I go to the city with friends, but if I learn from the sitch with the vacation, I should not get my hopes up or like you say, they'll be dashed and he'll relish in the power drama.
I like your idea of making plans that do not in any way include him. This would be sooooo hard for me to do, but I really should do it. I'll think long and hard. I do not want to set myself up for tears. I like the idea of going out with my parents, as I feel they should be celebrated on my birthday as well!
And yes, I do fear the anger backlash or the shutdown after I do something for me, but it would be good to play it like I expect him to jerk me around, and I want to avoid that. He'll be angry because down deep he'll know he was an a$$ for not doing anything for my birthday. also, yeah, he'll hate not having a chance to wound me. He gets off on that. He blames me for most everything, and I'm sure he will if I don't invite him to my birthday, even though he is the one playing games about it.
He has just started counselling a month ago, at the same time we started couple's counselling. Hoping he will begin to look at himself. Seems to be calming down in the last month - not sure why, a whole bunch of things have changed in December. But you're right, I get my hopes up waaaaaaay too easily, which is how I set myself up for those hopes to be dashed. I'm building up strength now with my independence, little by little.
I'm like you in that I will see a little progress and want to hold onto that. DR does recommend noting the baby steps. I do want to acknowledge them, while staying committed to my need to protect myself for possible future letdowns.
Thanks for your advice, and insight. You're spot on.
H4L I'd definitely be making my own birthday plans rather than get my hopes dashed, mine was over Xmas so H was around, its a hard time to have a birthday as it always falls on the bit when restaurants close as light relief between xmas day and new years eve so guess what I get to nothing usually.. I agreed to spend Xmas with H but said in no certain terms if he wasnt going to spend my birthday or new year with me I'd like to know so I could plan my own celebrations, funny that he then behaved like I'd left him out and organised something lol!
Personally I'd organise something that he could drop by too, but if he didnt the end of the world wouldnt come, so several friends out for dinner, or a bit of a soiree at your place after S has gone to bed maybe! But in your mind see him as not coming at all your birthday after all is for YOU!
H does seem to be doing some work on himself which is good news, dont forget to validate his hard work as well, I do think the time apart you are having is working for you both so use it and treasure it as if/when you are together full time its gonna be a hellava lot harder.
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W 47 H 47 M 24 T 30
Once lost but now found and happily married again!
OOh Rabbit - I wish I had been home to take you up on that offer. Another day?
Had horrible news - well reconfirmation - in MC today. H says that he "feels I have an agenda" to get him back. So I'm not DBing well. I told him (defensively) that he has a big ego to think that's my main agenda. I said I know this can go any different way but that I don't feel we've really delved into the deep issues enough to know if we can heal them or not yet.
He did say he is willing to go there and that he brought up "past issues" last MC session because this was his attempt to start looking at the issues. So, ok, that sounds good, right? But he did voice that all this stuff of me inviting him to the party and to the mountains (even though he invited himself and doesn't want to remember it that way) gives the impression I have an agenda. Obviously I have had my hopes up too much and must do what we all talked about for my birthday. On the other hand, he was open to hearing that this is not my "agenda" - I told him that we could be either just getting along for S's sake, being friends, or "working toward reconsiliation" but that it has been unclear and that I am open to all of these but I need more conversation about it if we are to be clear where we stand.
This is the big scary border from DB phase one, just trying to get him not to file D by avoiding all R talks, to DB phase two, where we start trying to figure out where we are and where we are going - piecing?
It's just unclear right now. I suppose that's a better place to be than "I'm Ding you no matter what" but it still sucks. H says he wants to look at the past because he feels that the "core bond was essentially broken from the start and therefor there is nothing to fix because it can't be fixed" but is open to the discussion that it could be otherwise. H claims it's easier to start anew with a new R if he's correct that there is something fundamentally broken than try to repair 9 years of pain. That's what really got me. He's at the point where he sees it as more beneficial to toss me aside than start anew. You and I all know this is BS and a fantasy, etc, but it's a lot more painful to be faced with someone who is convinced of that.
For over a year I fantasized about being with someone else because I was afraid that my H and I were fundamentally too different. But I was in fantasy. I know that there is no perfect romance and keeping your family together if possible is more valuable. It took me a long time to get this - how am I going to get him to see this?
So that's where we stand. ADvice? Help! I need to know what to do to get him to see that this marriage is worth it. I feel like total chit right now that the man who was so in love with me in the beginning is now painting himself and engaging in an impossible, broken relationship from the start.
My only hope is that he is open to discovering he is wrong - that he "doesn't remember things correctly" as he put it. So here's my chance friends - how do I convince him he is wrong?
I'm so despondant tongiht - just crying and crying - and my car broke down.
I don't want to see this little boy grow up in two houses. I want to work on my M. I see so many things I did wrong and he did wrong and I believe we can fix it. Now how do I get him to believe that?
Hugs. I'm sorry your MC today put you through the ringer.
I wish I had magic advice, but I don't think I was ever particularly good at DBing to begin with. I think the main thing is that you can't make him see it can be fixed. You can't do that anymore than he can make you see all the reasons he thinks it can't be fixed.
It's been a while since I read DR (and I don't have it anymore because I gave it to H many years ago against advice from here--told you I wasn't good at this!), but the only "right" way for you to react to him giving reasons why it can't be fixed is to validate. That doesn't mean you agree with him, but if you can't totally bite your tongue all together, validate that you heard him.
Now he's told you he feels like you're on a mission to get him back so you need to go a little dark, GAL and all that other stuff. No R talk outside of MC. If he brings anything up, validate and try to redirect the conversation as quickly as possible to something else.
Think back to the recent positives you've had like where he joined you and your S. Go backwards and see if there's a pattern in your attitude or thinking or behavior beforehand. There may be or there may not be, but you may find some clues that are helpful.
Get a good night's rest. I hope your car trouble is something easy and cheap to fix.
Me38,H:38,S:7 Married:6/99 Bomb:7/04 Sep.:5/05 D Filed:3/08;Final 1/10 Piecing:11/09 H moved back:09/10 Current thread: http://tiny.cc/htcty
