Going straight forward...antlers 6th thread.

[iwantittowork]

Hey Ant,

I saw your reply to Gardener, but it seems your still assuming a bunch from what you posted.

Let's go under the assumption that it's directed at you, though. What can you do?

Acknowledge how he feels, and understand that in a way, he is struggling and reaching out as best he can, currently..

I would suggest that you discuss with your C, and try and formulate a plan. They may suggest getting him to C as well, and that may be what is needed, so you'll have to plan on that possibility as well.

I don't see much else you can do. You can react negatively to what is happening, and that won't help one bit. Compassion and help, in the face of even getting stuff like this thrown at you may eventually help.

I know I am not offering much here, but we're seeing things only through the context of forum postings, and don't know you or your family, and why I am suggesting you look to outside help.

I will keep you and your family in my thoughts though, as I have been doing, and say some prayers for healing for you.

Peace, Antlers, and try and work on your positive attitude as that will carry over into your day to day life with your kids..

[antlers]

iwantittowork,
it was directed at me, for the reasons I stated. I replied to his text with "I love you". If he mentions it, I'll discuss it with him...but when I bring stuff up like that, he doesn't like it. I do understand that he is struggling. There's not a lot I can do, except be there for him, be compassionate, and love him unconditionally. Thank You for your good thoughts. I'll continue to work on my PMA.

[SDFoundGirl]

Just a thought, from someone who works with your son's age group for a living...

Yes, it was about you, about this whole crappy situation...but also about his mom, a classmate who made him look stupid in front of a girl, his hormones, the teacher who he thinks hates them. It's all wrapped up together like a big, drippy burrito. That's also why you get the I love you.

I've been reading along for the last little while...and okay, your posts drip with guilt and self-flagellation. Did you screw up? Yes. Welcome to the human race. You can beat yourself up about it, or you can do the best with what you've got, learn from the situation, and come out the other side a lot stronger and smarter. I'm willing to bet you won't make those same mistakes again.

Anyway, if your vibe is guilty on here, I'm willing to bet your vibe is sort of guilty in your real life. That makes you vulnerable, no matter what your kids truly think of the situation. You are the "safe" parent to attack...when my colleague was going through her divorce, her 13 year old daughter told her she wasn't fit to be a parent, who the hell let her procreate. And this lady is just about the nicest woman...her hubby had an affair and basically treated her like his personal servant. Fast forward 9 years, and this same girl has no recollection of that conversation, and mom and daughter are close as can be, closer than dad and daughter.

Now, I also think you need to set some boundaries with your son. The *way* he spoke to you is unacceptable. He knows that. He may not want to have a conversation with you, but I think it's important you express the following to him:

S, I'm sorry you think so poorly of me, and I can see how you might feel that way. I am, however, your father, and it is not acceptable for you to talk to me this way. If you're angry with me, if you disagree with something I've done or said, or if you have questions for me, I am willing to have a conversation with you at any time. However, it is not okay for you to use abusive or insulting language with me or anyone else. Part of becoming a man is stepping up to the plate and handling your problems face to face. That said, is there anything you'd like to talk to me about that we can sort out?

Does that make sense? Just because he's angry doesn't mean he gets to be disrespectful.

Now...are you willing to hear what he has to say without defending yourself? Can you listen and validate what your child says so he feels safe to express himself? Are you willing to find the truth in his words and make amends?

I know it hurts, but everyone in your family is hurting from this whole situation. It sucks. But what an opportunity to teach your son how to man up and handle his disagreements with respect.

SD

[antlers]

Just a thought, from someone who works with your son's age group for a living...

Yes, it was about you, about this whole crappy situation...but also about his mom, a classmate who made him look stupid in front of a girl, his hormones, the teacher who he thinks hates them. It's all wrapped up together like a big, drippy burrito. That's also why you get the I love you.

I've been reading along for the last little while...and okay, your posts drip with guilt and self-flagellation. Did you screw up? Yes. Welcome to the human race. You can beat yourself up about it, or you can do the best with what you've got, learn from the situation, and come out the other side a lot stronger and smarter. I'm willing to bet you won't make those same mistakes again.

Anyway, if your vibe is guilty on here, I'm willing to bet your vibe is sort of guilty in your real life. That makes you vulnerable, no matter what your kids truly think of the situation. You are the "safe" parent to attack...when my colleague was going through her divorce, her 13 year old daughter told her she wasn't fit to be a parent, who the hell let her procreate. And this lady is just about the nicest woman...her hubby had an affair and basically treated her like his personal servant. Fast forward 9 years, and this same girl has no recollection of that conversation, and mom and daughter are close as can be, closer than dad and daughter.

Now, I also think you need to set some boundaries with your son. The *way* he spoke to you is unacceptable. He knows that. He may not want to have a conversation with you, but I think it's important you express the following to him:

S, I'm sorry you think so poorly of me, and I can see how you might feel that way. I am, however, your father, and it is not acceptable for you to talk to me this way. If you're angry with me, if you disagree with something I've done or said, or if you have questions for me, I am willing to have a conversation with you at any time. However, it is not okay for you to use abusive or insulting language with me or anyone else. Part of becoming a man is stepping up to the plate and handling your problems face to face. That said, is there anything you'd like to talk to me about that we can sort out?

Does that make sense? Just because he's angry doesn't mean he gets to be disrespectful.

Now...are you willing to hear what he has to say without defending yourself? Can you listen and validate what your child says so he feels safe to express himself? Are you willing to find the truth in his words and make amends?

I know it hurts, but everyone in your family is hurting from this whole situation. It sucks. But what an opportunity to teach your son how to man up and handle his disagreements with respect.

SD

Good mornin' SDFoundGirl.

Wow. Serendipity. I'm glad you're here.

I understand there's more to it than just me, but I feel like a whole lot of it is me, and it's hard not to take it personal. He's going through a lot (so is my 13 y/o daughter), I know that. Thank you for pointing this out. There's a lot more to his angst also, I recognize that...but I think this whole crappy situation is the brunt of it.

Yeah, I do have a lot of remorse, regrets, disappointment, and rejection to deal with (not to mention the pain and heartache)...and some self-indulgence in what I did wrong. Beating myself up for as long as I have hasn't helped the situation, or me, in any way whatsoever. It makes sense to do the best I can with what I've got, learn from the situation, and come out the other side a lot stronger and smarter. I have no intention of making those same mistakes again. Thanks for pointing this stuff out. It's sometimes very hard to do, especially under circumstances such as these.

Yes, I'm sure my vibe is a negative one (guilt, remorse, etc.) around my kids. It's weak, and I can see how that makes me vulnerable, regardless of how the kids feel about the situation. I can see how I'm the "safe" parent to attack. I never looked at it that way. Thanks.

I agree. I just have to handle it differently because of my past behavior. I have to realize that they (the kids) can't 'make' me angry. They can't force me to give up internal regulation of my emotions. I think he knows talking to me this way is wrong.

Your example is great. Thanks. I can tell that you do what you do for a living. I'll use it.

Yes, it makes perfect sense. And I agree with you.

Yes, I can do that. Yep, I can do that too. Absolutely.

It does hurt, and I agree that everyone (well, almost everyone) in the family is hurting from this situation. It sucketh. Thank you for your insight and expertise. I hope that you will stick around, or at least come by regularly. Thank you.


Sincerely,
antlers

[SDFoundGirl]

I'm glad what I wrote was helpful.

Now, here's the truth: most parents of middle school aged kids take it personally, and it's SO not. The reason I love this age and thrive as a teacher for this age group is because I *don't* take it personally AND I set really firm boundaries. My students (lovingly) joke that I turn misbehaving kids into new boots for my collection.

A book that might really help you learn how to navigate this is _How to Talk So Kids Will Listen and Listen So Kids Will Talk_. It is inexpensive and absolutely PHENOMENAL. I recommend it to all of my parents...it was the book that helped me most with classroom management (they have a book specifically for teachers). It costs about $12, and you can find it in the parenting section of most bookstores.
http://tinyurl.com/ykg5nvq

I just checked on Amazon, and it looks like the same authors wrote a book specifically addressing teens, but I don't know anything about that one. The strategies are pretty much the same K-12, it's just the language, consequences and responsibilities that shift.

So...part of shifting that self-flagellation is appreciating the positives. Make a list of the positive ways you've changed and the things you like about yourself. When you're wrapped in guilt, take that list out and re-read it. Wear it on your person...put it in your wallet. You can't change the past; it's over and done with. You know better now, so do better now. Let go of what you can't change.

Good luck to you!

SD

[antlers]

Good mornin' SDFoundGirl.

What you post to me is helpful.

It's hard not to take it personal when it's your own kid. I believe you; and I can see how it would be easier to not take it personal when it's your students. But when my own kids lash out at me like they do, especially my son, it hurts...and it's hard to not take it personal. It makes me feel like a failure as a parent. Is it not personal when my own kids lash out at me?

I will check out the book. Thanks. My son turned into a demon this morning while getting ready to leave for school. Nothing in particular happened either. And on the way to school this morning, he was just as mean as he could be...lashing out at me for everything he could think of.

I have a 13 y/o daughter too, so maybe the teen book would be helpful too.

I was feeling pretty good, we had a pretty good night last, but this morning he got mean, beligerent, and disrespectful. Talking to him does no good. It just pisses him off. Keep in mind my past behavior...angry, resentful, and abusive. Actions do speak louder than words, and I'm not sure how to handle this. Sometimes I think the best thing to do is not respond to this type of behavior from him at all...you can't reason with someone when they're pissed...and after he calms down, just tell him what you told me the other day..."it's not OK for you to talk to your dad like that". What do you think?

I do not want to self-flagellate anymore...but it sure makes you feel like a parental failure when your kids treat you this way.

I know I can't change the past...but I still want to 'fix' it. I know it's over and done with...but I still care about my W and family. I do know better now, and I'm doing better...but I'm having a different kind of trouble with my kids now that is a source for a lot of pain. I can't change them, but I can change me, and I can change the way I interact with them. I don't have anymore control over their thoughts, feelings, or actions than I do over those of their mother! But it's a painful situation nonetheless.

My son is so full of angst. I told him I loved him this morning on the way to school, while he was lashing out at me...and it pissed him off!

Your expertise is really appreciated.

[goldeylox]

Another good book, has a long title that I can't remember the beginning, but it ends with, "...But First, Would You Take Me and Cheryl To The Mall?" I'll try to get the name of the author, or perhaps someone who knows this book will chime in.
Peace in 2010. Goldey
p.s. I also have a 13 yo daughter, who told me last week that I am an irresponsible mother. Ouch.

[antlers]

Hi goldeylox. Thanks. This age group is full of angst and emotions under the best of circumstances...and I'm sure it increases tremendously when there is marital discord, separation, and divorce to add to the mix. It's hard to navigate. My kids are hurt, angry, bitter, resentful, abusive, etc., and I'm having trouble dealing with them lovingly, compassionately, and effectively...I love them and have compassion for them, but those things don't seem to matter to them.

[Bridgestone]

reframe this..

I love them and have compassion for them, but those things don't seem to matter to them.

to this

I love them and have compassion for them,forever but those things don't seem to matter to them right now

[antlers]

You're right. Thanks.

What does matter to them right now?

Both kids seem like they are so different from what they were this summer, and they continue to change rapidly...and not in a good way!

They treat me like crap. And it's hard for me to interact with them effectively, under the circumstances. It's just another heartbreaking and painful chapter to this whole awful ordeal.

They are innocent victims...kids shouldn't have to pay for the stupidity of their parents.