Newbie with almost WAW - Need Advice

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How would you climb a mountain?

I certainly wouldn't let go of the rope Sorry, read a lot of threads about dropping the rope today so couldn't resist!

I guess instead of looking at the entire mountain and seeing an incredible obstacle that cant be overcome (and defeating myself), I have to focus on each step and just worry about making progress in very small increments. Your post yesterday was right, I need a plan. I have a lot of ideas for self improvement but I need a plan for busting the A, for getting my self respect back, for getting my W's respect back and moving this ship in some direction either to D or R.

I will think some more and post some ideas later tonight and hopefully you can help me regroup a bit. I DBd really badly in December!

I did notice something really trivial and insignificant last night in an interaction with my W. It made me think that I need to shake up her feeling of control over this sitch

[12bar]

Well...where to start? This may get long so I apologize in advance.

So......how do you set about doing what you need to do? What is the plan?

Thought about this a lot and realized that I have not had a plan all along. I have always been one to "wing" things but I am out of my league on this one. I am a scientist and decided that the best way to formulate a plan is to summarize all of the "data" I have so far. My WAW is still here in the house 5 months post bomb after coming close to separating twice. I initially drove her away by my withdrawal due to depression which resulted in me not keeping her love bucket full. As usual, I cried begged and pleaded like crazy at first before I found this site. I stopped that a long time ago (first thing I did right). Second thing I did right was to gather Intel and confront her on her A. After the exposure, I felt empowered and my PMA increased dramatically and held through November. December was bad for me and my W has noticed my sadness and lack of PMA. I need a plan! The facts as I see them at this point:

1. W still here 5 months post Bomb and nearly 1 year after meeting OM

2. W came close to S twice but has NEVER mentioned D

3. W tells me that she is depleted after trying so long and that she does not think I can change (have made changes but she does not acknowledge them)

4. When asked outright if she is able to choose between me and OM, she replied I don't know what I want.

5. She has not apologized, not shown any real remorse other than saying that she can't stand to see me hurting, and is by all appearances still continuing A.

6. We have a good friendship still and I think she is getting some ENs met by OM and some by me (cake eating). W does not get angry with me and never starts R talks with me.

7. The only two things I have done to get any emotion out of her is when she was confronted on A and when I told her that if she doesn't stop, she would lose me completely. She said she had never considered a life without me in it at all and would never choose that.

8. W does not respect me anymore, gave me a laundry list of things she resents about me

9. W still not buying into M counseling

10. W, me and OM all work at the same company. A has not been exposed to anyone except one of my close friends. Nobody in either of our families knows. 99% sure that OM is single.

11. I have done a lot of snooping and can't find any evidence that she has contacted a L (I have not either)

12. Divorce in my state could take quite a while to finalize (12-18 months of separation required) so time is on my side

So, looking at all of this, I am in a situation where my W has checked out to a large extent and enjoys what she is getting from OM. I feel that if she were certain about leaving, she would not still be here. I have also noticed when I keep the home fires burning warmly and don't stir emotions up, she seems content in this arrangement, however, when my PMA drops and I pursue, things get worse. I think this situation could persist for a very long time. I still love my W dearly and want this to work out so I can persist at this for some time but I need a firm plan to make sure we start moving in one direction or another. I can't live in limboland forever, it is affecting my health.

Draft Plan (comments and/or 2 x 4's welcome)

1. PMA, PMA, PMA! If I find this challenging, may have to start ADs

2. Continue to work on positive changes in my life, especially the ones that I know that I need and that she has placed on the laundry list. Try to regain some of her respect.

3. Start going to MC, let her know that she is welcome to come and let her know each time I go. Continue with my therapy for depression.

4. No more victim pukes by me (or at least minimal victim pukes)

5. Learn to love myself, regain my self respect. Set goals for self improvement. Continue to read self-improvement books

6. Accept that my M is probably a goner, really work towards detachment.

7. Reconnect with family and old friends

8. Keep home a nice place to be for both me and W

9. GAL. I am really bad about this. My problem is that when she is home, I am happy to be around her and happy that she is not out so I sit here. If I am honest with myself, when she goes out and stays out, it hurts me tremendously so I think I am avoiding GAL because I am worried that it will prompt her to go out more. I am being controlled by fear on this one. I need to do a lot of work here.

10. I need to create mystery and upset the balance of control. My W has me locked down and she knows it. GAL will be a start to this (other suggestions most welcome!)

11. I will set a daily goal to demonstrate to myself that I am high value

12. I will listen to advice and strive to act on it, not just read it and go Wow! that is great advice! and not act.

13. Re-read my thread from start to finish to reflect on advice already given. Re-read DR.

13. If W ever proceeds with S, I go dark as night

Any other suggestions?

Lastly, while I don't think W has seen a L, I have been thinking about at least doing an initial consult to better understand where I stand and to make sure I am protecting myself. I will not let W know this because I am not sure I should escalate when she has not mentioned D. Is this the right thing to do?

At the initial A confrontation, I established my boundary concerning OM (I will not tolerate a 3rd person in our R) but I did not establish consequences. Tried sliding the consequence of losing me completely in the other night and it had an effect on her. She reacted by lashing back out at me and threatening S again. How can I improve my boundary setup at this point?

I have not obtained any more affair Intel since prior to the confrontation. I had thought long and hard about a keylogger but have been hesitant. If she found it, I think it would be a dealbreaker for her. Is this worth it? I don't think my state weighs infidelity except for child custody and we have no children.

Well, that's all I have for now. Any help/suggestions/advice would be greatly appreciated. I am tired, hurt and frustrated like everyone else here but I am not going to let that prevent me from doing what needs to be done moving forward.

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Well, did OK last night. W was out and came home at about midnight. I was still dressed and looking sharp and on the phone with a friend laughing and having a good time. W looked at me as if trying to figure out what the heck was I doing. I ignored a text from her earlier in the evening too!

I didn't ask her any details about her night and let her go to bed without me while I stayed up reading a book.

[sandi2]

I certainly wouldn't let go of the rope Sorry, read a lot of threads about dropping the rope today so couldn't resist

I guess instead of looking at the entire mountain and seeing an incredible obstacle that cant be overcome (and defeating myself), I have to focus on each step and just worry about making progress in very small increments.

Wow! I was going to say, "A step at a time", but I like your answer much better!

[sandi2]

Oh, good job on your plan of action! I like that. You put a lot of thought into it.

1. W still here 5 months post Bomb and nearly 1 year after meeting OM

2. W came close to S twice but has NEVER mentioned D

That is a positive sign in a couple of ways. Your W must not be in too much of a hurry or feel too uncomfortable around you....or she would move out of the house. Secondly, the OM must want all the advantages of an A, but none of the responsibilites of a R. He must like the setup as it stands.

3. W tells me that she is depleted after trying so long and that she does not think I can change (have made changes but she does not acknowledge them)

4. When asked outright if she is able to choose between me and OM, she replied I don't know what I want.

5. She has not apologized, not shown any real remorse other than saying that she can't stand to see me hurting, and is by all appearances still continuing A.

This is all very, very common for a WAW in an A. Some H's don't get #4, however, and their WAW will tell them outright they rather have OM.

6. We have a good friendship still and I think she is getting some ENs met by OM and some by me (cake eating). W does not get angry with me and never starts R talks with me.

7. The only two things I have done to get any emotion out of her is when she was confronted on A and when I told her that if she doesn't stop, she would lose me completely. She said she had never considered a life without me in it at all and would never choose that.

The friendship is good, but you want her to be attracted to you sexually, also. She can have GF's, for friends, right? So, you may be able to do like the book suggests and "cause a crises". It takes that to shake 'em up some times.

8. W does not respect me anymore, gave me a laundry list of things she resents about me

9. W still not buying into M counseling

Yes, goes hand in hand with the WAW symptoms.

10. W, me and OM all work at the same company. A has not been exposed to anyone except one of my close friends. Nobody in either of our families knows. 99% sure that OM is single.

So, it is important to your W to save face? You need to think about yourself if you/when you expose the A at work. I wouldn't think you would want to do anything to jepordize your job by having some scandle at work, but I'm not an authority on this. It took me a long time to come around to the idea of exposing the WAS b/c I was raised to believe that that was private and to be kept between the man & his wife. So, you may need to ask some the "experts" about that.

The fact that the family doesn't know and just a few close friends is not good b/c of the fact of an A growing in secretcy.

11. I have done a lot of snooping and can't find any evidence that she has contacted a L (I have not either)

12. Divorce in my state could take quite a while to finalize (12-18 months of separation required) so time is on my side

Those are both very positive.

I have to leave for a while. I'll try to get back to the rest b/c I am interested in what you have planned. Great work.

[Awoken]

Hi Junco,

Great post with your draft plan; I saved it for myself to read over. You asked for comments, so here are mine:

1. PMA, PMA, PMA! If I find this challenging, may have to start ADs

I'm using the book "learned optimism", and it's been pretty helpful so far.
The AD's take at least two weeks before they start to have any benefit; maybe you should start them anyway?

2. Continue to work on positive changes in my life, especially the ones that I know that I need and that she has placed on the laundry list. Try to regain some of her respect.

3. Start going to MC, let her know that she is welcome to come and let her know each time I go. Continue with my therapy for depression.

Both of these sound like they might be about her. I suggest you work on the changes in your life that think YOU need to make. I haven't read your entire thread yet, but I'm assuming you are like all of us LBS, in that you have suddenly realized your faults in the M. Yes, address the ones that you honestly think you are at fault for, and do it because you want to be a better Junco. My (very limited) experience so far is that WAW can tell the difference between you making changes to pursue them and just for yourself, often better than LBS can.

Again, if she is not interested in MC, why tell her? I'm worried it just going to be part of a guilt-trip for her.

5. Learn to love myself, regain my self respect. Set goals for self improvement. Continue to read self-improvement books

Part of your plan/goals is to "set goals"? I dunno if this is you or not, but I found I've spent too much time reading self-help books, and not enough time doing stuff to help myself.
I suggest you write down or post exactly what your goals for self-improvement are.

6. Accept that my M is probably a goner, really work towards detachment.

7. Reconnect with family and old friends

8. Keep home a nice place to be for both me and W

These sound like things on your list for self improvement. Great stuff! Accept that your old marriage is already gone: you want a new and better one.

9. GAL. I am really bad about this.

Yes, this is hard! Imagine what you WANT out of life (I'm not talking about saving your M), and go after it...daily.
Don't make GAL decisions based on what will impact your W, or on what will save your M. It's easier to do if you pursue your own needs for self-improvement. I'm still struggling with this, since I spend so much time worrying about my W and my M. This is not only counter-intuitive, it's almost contradictory!

10. I need to create mystery and upset the balance of control. My W has me locked down and she knows it. GAL will be a start to this (other suggestions most welcome!)

GAL and detachment should help with this, right?
I need to read your thread, but with your W involved with OM, it seems to me that you are spending too much energy on her, and this is preventing your GAL and detachment.

Sandi gave you such great replies, so I'm just pitching in here. Let me tell you, I'm replying here as part of my own GAL plans. I'm not very social, and participating in the forums here is a big step outside my comfort zone.

I wish you the best, Junco!

[sandi2]

.

PMA, PMA, PMA! If I find this challenging, may have to start ADs

For people who suffer with long term depression, meds are the way we have to go. I tried everything for depression, but I finally accepted that it was a clinical thing in my brain that I could not control.

2. Continue to work on positive changes in my life, especially the ones that I know that I need and that she has placed on the laundry list. Try to regain some of her respect.

When you start to like yourself better then she will too. You need to "claim" respect from her and depending on her personality type, it may not be an easy task....but doable.

3. Start going to MC, let her know that she is welcome to come and let her know each time I go. Continue with my therapy for depression.

I got to tell ya, speaking as a former WAW....that doesn't work too well for her. It is pressure on her and she will resist you saying anything...even the fact that "you" are attending MC, so I personally think it is a bad idea to mention to her that you're going, much less invite her. It is the same principle as leaving marriage help books laying around for her to read.

4. No more victim pukes by me (or at least minimal victim pukes)

5. Learn to love myself, regain my self respect. Set goals for self improvement. Continue to read self-improvement books

Yep

6. Accept that my M is probably a goner, really work towards detachment.

Yes....and remember this with #8.

7. Reconnect with family and old friends

Make this part of your GAL. Don't do it on the computer or phone alone, but get out of the house (while W is home) and go meet thses folks.

8. Keep home a nice place to be for both me and W

I suggest you focus on keeping it nice for "you" or you won't keep focus off of her and the detachment will be a problem....IMHO.

11. I will set a daily goal to demonstrate to myself that I am high value

Oh, I like this one!

10. I need to create mystery and upset the balance of control. My W has me locked down and she knows it. GAL will be a start to this (other suggestions most welcome!)

Yes, I agree 100%.

[sandi2]

At the initial A confrontation, I established my boundary concerning OM (I will not tolerate a 3rd person in our R) but I did not establish consequences. Tried sliding the consequence of losing me completely in the other night and it had an effect on her. She reacted by lashing back out at me and threatening S again. How can I improve my boundary setup at this point?

What is the point of a boundary without a consequence? I could have told my teenage children that I would not have them drinking alcohol.....but if they did and got away with it, do you think they would have respected my "boundary"?

Since their has been no consequenses thus far, then my sugestion would be that whenever she shows any obvious signs of contacting OM, then what about saying something like, "I hope you are not talking to OM on the phone b/c that would be incredible disrespectful for a W do to that to her H". "I certainly hope that you were not spending time with the OM, since that would be an ultimate sign of disrespect for your H". I don't think workds alone are enough, but it is a beginning until you have solid proof. What can you think of that she would not want to "suffer" due to breaking a boundary?

I suggest that you never threaten her at losing you if she breaks the boundary.....unless you are fully prepared to carry it through. That needs to be with any consequense you give.

Some of the men are better at wording these things than I am. Robx is a good one. But he's really tough.

I had thought long and hard about a keylogger but have been hesitant. If she found it, I think it would be a dealbreaker for her. Is this worth it?

That advice is passed around a lot, but I think it has to be left up to the individual man. If you can live without a keylogger and you think you can outshine OM....then you have to make that choice. But, some men find themselves in a limbo state due to the WAW being very comfy in her cake-eating state. So, it's up to you. If she is computer savy, then it is taking a very big risk. Having her followed with some picture taking may work better. You need to read about options to take and then decide what is best for your stitch.

However, don't be surprised if we don't come back and tell you if you are being too "nice" too her.....being too soft with your actions. And most men don't like to be told that. But, the thing is, most people can't see their stitch like an outsider b/c they are too close to the problem.

Sure hope 2010 turns out to be a great year for you.

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I have tries to reply 3 times and I get almost all of the way through it and W comes in the room to talk about trivial stuff and I have to shut the window down and lose all my typing...arrrgh!

Oh, good job on your plan of action! I like that. You put a lot of thought into it.

1. W still here 5 months post Bomb and nearly 1 year after meeting OM

2. W came close to S twice but has NEVER mentioned D

That is a positive sign in a couple of ways. Your W must not be in too much of a hurry or feel too uncomfortable around you....or she would move out of the house. Secondly, the OM must want all the advantages of an A, but none of the responsibilites of a R. He must like the setup as it stands.

I still worry a bit that she is staying to get her ducks in a row before S/D but I can't focus on that. I at least feel good that she hasn't mentioned the D-word yet!

3. W tells me that she is depleted after trying so long and that she does not think I can change (have made changes but she does not acknowledge them)

4. When asked outright if she is able to choose between me and OM, she replied I don't know what I want.

5. She has not apologized, not shown any real remorse other than saying that she can't stand to see me hurting, and is by all appearances still continuing A.

This is all very, very common for a WAW in an A. Some H's don't get #4, however, and their WAW will tell them outright they rather have OM.

She is clearly conflicted and I do think there is some guilt in there somewhere. I think she is able to compartmentalize things pretty good though. In her letter she said that she really wants to have space to see if she will miss me. I know that "space" means time to pursue OM full-on but at least maybe she still feels that there is something to miss.

6. We have a good friendship still and I think she is getting some ENs met by OM and some by me (cake eating). W does not get angry with me and never starts R talks with me.



7. The only two things I have done to get any emotion out of her is when she was confronted on A and when I told her that if she doesn't stop, she would lose me completely. She said she had never considered a life without me in it at all and would never choose that.

The friendship is good, but you want her to be attracted to you sexually, also. She can have GF's, for friends, right? So, you may be able to do like the book suggests and "cause a crises". It takes that to shake 'em up some times.

Without a doubt! I value our friendship but I want to be her husband first and foremost. If we ever reconcile, she is going to have a much new and improved version of Junco for sure!

10. W, me and OM all work at the same company. A has not been exposed to anyone except one of my close friends. Nobody in either of our families knows. 99% sure that OM is single.

So, it is important to your W to save face? You need to think about yourself if you/when you expose the A at work. I wouldn't think you would want to do anything to jepordize your job by having some scandle at work, but I'm not an authority on this. It took me a long time to come around to the idea of exposing the WAS b/c I was raised to believe that that was private and to be kept between the man & his wife. So, you may need to ask some the "experts" about that.

The fact that the family doesn't know and just a few close friends is not good b/c of the fact of an A growing in secretcy.

I also came from a family where problems were not anyone else's business. I think that and my respect for my W is what has prevented me from exposing to family. I do know though if this goes on too long or if it escalates, I may have to do this. I still don't plan to confront at work for now, there is already way too much drama in my life!

11. I have done a lot of snooping and can't find any evidence that she has contacted a L (I have not either)

12. Divorce in my state could take quite a while to finalize (12-18 months of separation required) so time is on my side

Those are both very positive.

I always have to keep reminding myself that no matter how bad I have it, there are so many others that have it much worse.





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[sandi2]

The thing about exposure is you have to realize that if the WAW goes back to her LBH, then why would she want to ML to the man who exposed her at work, to friends, and to family? I know most answers would probably be that "she" did that by putting herself in that position. But, thinking like a WAW in an A, I believe the LBH must be very careful and think that through long enough that he feels that is the only thing he can do to turn things around. Do not do something that will come back and haunt the MR later, if reconciliation comes.

There have been two or three LBH's just within the past few days who have made that decision. One, has just stopped posting and I don't know what happened. One said he was going to give wife the two weeks notice last night unless we didn't think he should. Well, that wasn't enough time for the board to respond...on a holiday night, especially. Besides, he had just come on the board and only had a couple of pages of posts. That's not long enough to gather all the DB information one needS, IMHO. I didn't think he had enough information about the "how-tos" and was still waiting to talk to his lawyer, etc. He had what seem to be conflicting intel. IDK why I'm telling you this, except it really bothers me. I had only recently changed my mind and the exposure technique.....and I am in no way one to give advice about how to do it, but found myself with the last couple of LBH's trying to tell them. They need to talk to a man who has actually done this. Not me.

So, I am very concerned....about all of this. I take the advice we give as serious b/c it affects lives. I don't feel that you are the type that will be implusive and do something like that without fully thinking it through.

Anyway, guess I just needed to talk about it.