Hope and heartache

[ClingingToHope]

Quote:
I'm the same in a lot of ways. I tried so hard to make her happy and when I couldn't -- because I now know I can't, only she can make her happy -- I'd crash emotionally as well.

Did you know that before or after you were told that on the board?

I took some relationship classes at my church and came to this realization. It did not come from this board.

It sounds as if you are saying that you are too soft...too weak...and therefore you have chosen to just be a nice guy and call it unconditional love. Well, I've heard that one used as an excuse sooooo much. It is BS and you know it. I am so frustrated with men who won't get tough with a woman who walks all over them....and decides to label it "unconditional love". Please!

I don't know how to respond. I post my interactions with W every day. Except for a couple of invitations during Christmas, I haven't pursued at all since July. In November, when the girls were sick, she demanded I take a day off work and I told her she can't tell me what to do -- she ended up hanging up. She hasn't 'demanded' I do anything since.

I understand the doormat issue. I do not whine to her about money, time or the R. I present my best face when I'm there. I'm a great father to the girls.

We've discussed the house issue at length. I've complained about the money part of it, yes, but not to her. And even with the amount I'm giving her she's broke all the time.

I'm frustrated now by this board. Exactly what boundaries would you have me put down? We discussed the house issue at length.

You are supposed to focus on yourself, make yourself into the man she fell in love with in the first place. So what I've been trying to do is improve myself physically, financially, emotionally and spiritually.

Back to unconditional love. What I realized, again back in March before I started on this board, was that all of the things I was doing for W had hidden motivations. Also, I had a lot of "buts." I love W "but" I don't love her family. I love W "but" I don't like how she spends money.

I realized in March that to love W was to love her with all of her faults.

Sandi, I don't know how to respond to some of what you say. I think about the image I'm projecting to W every day. I can't crawl into her head, but I'm happy with how I feel.

I have no idea what the end result will be. The vast majority of the people on this board end up getting divorced so it's hard to figure out the good advice from the bad.

In terms of my sitch right now, I'm stuck in limboland, but I'm crawling out. At the end of February, I will have saved enough to file on my own and if I don't like the direction of things then I will. I've gotten over the "covenant with God" thing and what my daughter's will think.

I wish I was still in the house and didn't have to go to that extreme measure. But I'm not so I have to adjust to my situation. It's in the future so I'm not sure how it will exactly go, but I'm preparing myself to tell her that it's been a year since she said she wanted a D, she hasn't indicated she wanted to work on the M, I am not willing to share her with anyone and I want to be free to move on and don't feel it's right while we are still M. I won't mention the house or the money, those issues would be in the filing. I'll be going after joint physical custody and a much lower payment with it. I'll be asking for an additional day each week with the girls so that it's a 50/50 split. I want my wedding and engagement ring back. They were my grandmother's and a gift from my mom -- who loved W, but only gave them to me because she thought W would love me forever.

January and February are always hard on W and I won't be there to help her do dishes, get kids to school on time, shovel the driveway. She's on her own and she knows I'm out with things to do. I gathered that from the time she scoured my FB page. She opened up all the messages from me to others about places we were going and things we were doing.

Dottie said don't use D as a tactic. Only file for D if that's what you want. I am slowly building myself up to that point. I see a lot of very interesting women out there. I have friends with single friends that perhaps I could go out with, but few want to get involved with a married man.

I also need to get a financial settlement that I can live with for the next 10 years. I'm not going to finance her lifestyle forever.

Sorry this is so long. I feel I've come a long way and reading your response it seems like you believe I'm still at square one.

[mishka422]

I'm happy with how I feel.

Right there is all that matters. Nothing else.

Everyone here can say whatever, suggest whatever, but in the end the only important detail is that you feel good about the direction you are taking.

Sorry this is so long. I feel I've come a long way and reading your response it seems like you believe I'm still at square one.

I don't believe anyone thinks you are at square one. I think everyone is seeing that you are stuck and can't come to a definitive conclusion on how to move forward or what you want to do at this stage. I know that I, for one, and ticked for you every time I hear about your w's cake eating behavior. Any time she is being inconvenienced by the girls she comes crying to you. You have gotten better about it but she knows that you are available to bail her out often when she is in a bind and will use your love for your children as a weapon. Keep that in mind.

I don't foresee any issue with you filing for joint physical custody of the girls just because you aren't in the house. What separated couple going through D stays in the same house? Not many - creates a War of the Roses atmosphere!! No one wants that. You spend a lot of time with your girls as it is, no judge is going to remove that from you and will most likely increase your time to equal 50/50.

[robx]

We've discussed the house issue at length. I've complained about the money part of it, yes, but not to her. And even with the amount I'm giving her she's broke all the time.

I'm frustrated now by this board. Exactly what boundaries would you have me put down? We discussed the house issue at length.

You are supposed to focus on yourself, make yourself into the man she fell in love with in the first place. So what I've been trying to do is improve myself physically, financially, emotionally and spiritually.

Bro we're frustrated with you too.

Boundaries are for you as well as her,
you control you, what you do and what you would allow her to do to you.

Lets tackle this issue right now, this would seem like an easy one to me:

"...We've discussed the house issue at length. I've complained about the money part of it, yes, but not to her. And even with the amount I'm giving her she's broke all the time."

What money do you give her?
I've haven't read the entire thread so I don't know if you're living at home with your wife & kids or not. What money do you give her and why do you give her money?

Money for utility bills? Just take the bills and pay them yourself, that is simple enough. If she complains, you tell her without being afraid of her reaction, "you are broke all the time, you don't know how to manage money and I'm not just going to give you money to burn, this is my decision, if you don't like it then find a way to pay your own bills"

Money for rent or mortgage? Same response as above.

Money for groceries? Give her a set amount that is fair.
Although I have to ask the question, why does she need money from you? Does she work? If not, why not? Are the kids very young and not in school that she has to stay at home and watch them? What's up?

So we've covered utility bills, mortgage/rent, groceries... what's left? Gas for the vehicle?

What are you giving money to her for?
List the items.
List the reasons why.
Come up with ways to take care of each.

She's a big girl, let her be an adult but don't let her drain your wallet making mistakes, she either learns or she goes it her own way.

Respond back, based on your answers, I'll get an idea of your mindset here.

[ClingingToHope]

We've been separated eight months. I did some research and figured out Illinois is a percentage state. So I give $370 every two weeks for CS (28 percent of my net income). I give her an additional $115 for my half of the car insurance, my half of the money we put into the girls' college accounts and half of two loans we took out for house stuff. One of which should be paid at end of January -- although it won't be -- so I'm going to stop giving her that amount in February.

I proposed it. It was definitely a "nice guy" move.

At first I also thought it was best she have full physical custody -- more time at "their" house. But W won't be able to stay there long-term anyway so the girls will eventually have a new home. And as I learned over the year, I'm already taking them 40 percent of the time and they are adjusting well.

Why not boost it to 50 percent?

Over the summer, I was giving her a percentage of the money I made from a second job. My attorney told me to stop that. I'm also not chipping in on daycare expenses anymore -- something I should be doing -- because I simply can't afford it.

If/when a D is filed, I'm going for joint physical custody, which would mean no CS and just splitting expenses such as insurance, child care, school stuff.

That is where a fight would come in. Whatever attorney she gets will tell her to fight that because she'd be giving up $740 a month.

She makes $10,000 more a year than I do -- without the second income. It's amazing what the insurance industry pays. I'll make $4,500 or so this year in a second job I found after I moved out.

Basically, every two weeks she has -- after I transfer money into her account -- $2,000 and I have $900.

Mishka, she doesn't run to me with money troubles. That totally embarrasses her. She just did the one time and she didn't even ask me for much then -- $25. She does lean on me for kids/childcare issues. But they are my girls and I'm not going to punish them because of their mom's choices.

[robx]

is there a legal separation agreement in place?
is there a legal child custody agreement in place?

If not, why are you are paying for any of this then?

She chose to leave you but you enable her?

What would cause her to end this cozy arrangement you have?

All you are doing is setting a precedent, so when you do finally go to court, they'll say "this is what you have been doing voluntarily, we see no reason to end this since it's been going on so long"

Is she living in your home? A house?
You moved out? Why?
Why are you not living there?

Plus she makes more than you?

And you are covering the bulk of the expenses?

Did I read that correctly, $2000 every two weeks.... from you?
Or is that the combined amount of money she has from her job and your payments?

[robx]

so you're working 2 jobs and killing yourself to enable your wife's current situation and you don't have your kids more than 40% of the time.

I'm glad this is the end of 2009,
you need to stand up for yourself,
what is with this nice guy crap,
it's manipulative and controlling,
you're nice to her and you hope that her viewing how much you're doing for her that she'll just fall in love with you all over again and want you back.

Here's a hint...... THAT NEVER WORKS!

EVER!

EVER!

2010 new year for you.

January pursue joint custody of your children,
drop the 2nd job, spend that time with your kids and on yourself, stop enabling your wife who makes more money than you.

Why don't you feel like you have the same rights as your wife?

You are a human being too, ever hear of dignity and self-respect?

Without those things your wife would never ever be attracted to you.

If you don't change what you're doing and you don't act differently, I have to assume you have no guts to do this and you're just waiting to let this marriage die eventually from it's slow death - awesome, keep up what you're doing, you'll get there eventually.

[sandi2]

Sandi, I don't know how to respond to some of what you say. I think about the image I'm projecting to W every day. I can't crawl into her head, but I'm happy with how I feel.

I feel so frustrated b/c I feel that you are not hearing the message. And I am not saying this with anger. I get frustrated whenever anyone does not fully understand what I'm trying to relate.....and I'm not saying that is your fault, but it's my inability as a communicator.

I was hoping to get you to see part of it from the POV of a WAW and how she does not see her nice guy as she once did before she lost repsect for him. I think that is what people (and me included) means to say about being the man you were when she fell in love with you. The difference back then...was that you did not allow her to disrespect you (at least I don't think you did, or she would not have M you). Somewhere down the line, you began to let her get by with saying something, have an bad attitude, treating you some way......and then it turned into disrepect.

So, as in most things, you have to do what seems would be opposite in this stitch. But, as long as you feel good where you are now, that is what you have to live with. You sounded really satisfied (on one of the posts) about your apartment and the girls liked being there. The end result is for you to be happy about "who" you are and the life you are in.

I want to express that what I said about how so many excuses had been used about unconditional love?.....I didn't mean that I had heard sooooo many from "you", necessarily, but I mean that I have heard that from so many men & women who won't stand up for themselves. I have seen people hide behind the shield of unconditional love, and the badge of religion, and proclaiming forgiveness......when it's not really any of those things. It just gets to me b/c of abuse or fear or acts of cowardiness that I've seen in my life. (And.....I am not accusing you of any of that.)

I just want you to be honest with yourself......no excuses or calling it by some other name......and be happy with your life. If you really feel the way you described about moving on with your life, then that's good.

Don't be upset with the board. You are just feeling frustration also. I know you posted on my thread, plus you had your own thread, and you probably posted on other people's threads. It is hard to keep up with all of them.....and there are many personalities and POV. But I think it is everyone's intent to try to encourage, (in their own way) so that the other member will be all that they can be. If you are all that you can be/do.....then, I'm glad.

[Gnosis]

CTH, I'm with Rob on this...

Something else for you to thunk on... she earns more than you?

Really?

COOL!!!

It's the 21st century right? Women are our equals right? It your state supports it, file for spousal support too. No reason why you should have to work two jobs.

[ClingingToHope]

Robx. I made some poor decisions when this first happened. I admit that. She's lived entirely too comfortably.

The big thing at first was I didn't want her to lose the house. Without some help from me she can not afford it. But I found out I don't want to live at the level I'm living at and I want my girls at a 50/50 level.

I will be making changes this year. The big thing is I don't want to borrow money to pay for the retainer ($2,500). I'm in enough debt. So I've been saving, saving, saving. I'll have the money by the end of February and I'm preparing myself mentally to file for an S or a D.

The house is a major obstacle. We are underwater on it. I'm actually glad I moved out in that respect. It is a major financial and time drain to maintain.

My attorney did tell me the money I'm paying now could be a problem in the future. I may have to slug it out. I'm prepared.

Sandi. Did I lose her respect? Yes. These past three years, she's tried hard to push me away, and I kept trying harder to pull her back in. The rope analogy.

I hope I've earned her or am earning her respect back. She said I wouldn't leave and couldn't move on. I left and set myself up in a very nice situation. The girls love to come over and be with me. She knows I'm out doing things. In November, I told her she couldn't demand things from me anymore. I found extra jobs to keep a good lifestyle. She's admitted she's jealous at times about the low-maintenance townhouse and the part-time jobs.

Respect and passion appear to be different things for her. She's a lot like her mom. She's a loner who right now doesn't feel like she needs/wants a man in her life. She's content with her romance novels and toys.

She said back in March -- when the fog was really thick -- that when I do find someone else, who is more active and outgoing, that will hurt her.

I haven't found that person yet, but to be honest, I haven't been trying that hard.

You've posted on other forums that another woman or the threat of losing the man to another woman can get their attention.

Well, I don't know why, but deep down I feel it's wrong unless there's at least a filing in place. So for me that's the next step. But I also don't want to date someone just to get W's attention. That's not fair either.

I have to be mentally ready for it. I'm getting there.

[ClingingToHope]

Gnosis. I actually like the two jobs and will keep them even if we R or D. One is with a company that puts on running races. You go in on Saturday, put down barricades, put up tents and all that stuff.

Then the next day you clean it all up. $175 per day. I was in killer shape by the end of summer, too. I'm talking washboard abs -- damn hernia surgery slowed me up.

If we R, then I can pour all of the money into cleaning up debt and will be able to do even more races because I wouldn't have to worry about whether I have my kids. If we D, same thing, pay off debt, but also save for a trip to California in 2011.

In the winter, I've been doing the scorebook for a local high school basketball team. A friend of mine is the HS basketball coach and another is the AD.

That's fun. I run into guys I played against years ago. I love basketball in general. The coach and I go out to eat after.

I also do some freshman games and girls games. The sophomore girls coach is very cute and unattached and I'd ask her out -- if I wasn't married.